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Old 11-21-2012, 01:15 AM   #1741
GrahamD
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Originally Posted by droid View Post
not sure if i find point 3 insulting or not
You shouldn't.

Tell me why a BMW in OZ is worth 40% more than a Honda to many people?
Why is a chrome plated throw back to the 70's worth as much as a Goldwing?

Cause their the best right? Not necessarily.
Same happens in Hi-Fi
Same happens with Pads, Phones, Cars, Tents, Farkles, Handbags etc etc etc.

There have been many salesmen in many industries that will sell whatever they have in stock to a clueless customer and that customer will be happy, especially if it is popular.

The people that do the homework may end up with the same bike, but may not. They bring more logic and experience to the table and don't care so much about what people think or whether the bike is popular or not.

I have had a Strom and had BMW "poseurs" look down their noses at me, The same happens with the YAMAHA.

But then I have had BMW people that do their homework and have a good conversation about the pluses and minuses for them and appreciate each bike for what it is. You can tell they know what they are talking about.

If a Harley or BMW is exactly what you want, then you pays your money.
As far as I can see we both have a pile of cash we don't have to spend. Lucky us.
3 years ago there wasn't as much of a choice. Either way if you are happy you are happy.
And both the YAMAHA and Honda are a lot of bike for the money. The Wee Strom even more so.
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GrahamD screwed with this post 11-21-2012 at 01:22 AM
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Old 11-21-2012, 01:36 AM   #1742
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i guess my difference of opinion is that of the wood duck, the gullible punter. i sold cars for three years and was mixed up with bike wholesale for a while too. the wood duck that flies down and lands in the pond, ready to get shot? mate they are few and far between lemme tellya

but yeah you do make a lot of sense and we have another thing in common, neither has ridden the other bike, we have what we have and are happy with what we've got

i don't care that much for either design in terms of shape/style but fortunately the riding experience makes up for any lost time in the shed with a hard on
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Old 11-21-2012, 02:47 AM   #1743
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Quote:
Originally Posted by droid View Post

i don't care that much for either design in terms of shape/style but fortunately the riding experience makes up for any lost time in the shed with a hard on
No doubt about that. V4s absolutely rock.
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Old 11-21-2012, 04:09 AM   #1744
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i guess my difference of opinion is that of the wood duck, the gullible punter. i sold cars for three years and was mixed up with bike wholesale for a while too. the wood duck that flies down and lands in the pond, ready to get shot? mate they are few and far between lemme tellya
I spent a big chink of my life directly involved in either sales or manufacture of Audio products and software.

Plenty of people willing to plonk a wad of cash down on a well advertised over priced brand after they shopped around extensively and found the best price and deal etc.

Those that knew what they were talking about though never went near that brand.
Both customers were usually happy if you gave them a fair deal. But one lot never got value on the purchase because they never knew enough to know what they were missing because they had been convinced by advertising that it was the best.

Sometimes I could open peoples eyes a bit and get them to experience the real deal.

It is always the same.

Took me 6 years to figure out where I wanted to be. trial and error, good dealers and research.
I do appreciate a good dealer and do expect them to take home a reasonable income for the service, probably because I have been there as well.

In five years things may have changed and I hope there is something around at that stage that fits me as closely as the current steed.
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Old 11-27-2012, 07:35 PM   #1745
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Cross

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrahamD View Post
You shouldn't.

Tell me why a BMW in OZ is worth 40% more than a Honda to many people?
There is a lot speculation as to Cross' capabilities or lack thereof. I haven't seen any real evidence for or against. Is there anyone that can shed some more light on this?

Granted the GS has its chops off road and the Cross is really yet to do so. But other than requiring more aftermarket armor than the GS is there anything really holding it back? Is the extra weight a huge problem? Theres only 20 odd kilos difference between the GS adventure and the Cross.
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Old 11-28-2012, 04:42 AM   #1746
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Originally Posted by johnny_on_the_spot View Post
There is a lot speculation as to Cross' capabilities or lack thereof. I haven't seen any real evidence for or against. Is there anyone that can shed some more light on this?

Granted the GS has its chops off road and the Cross is really yet to do so. But other than requiring more aftermarket armor than the GS is there anything really holding it back? Is the extra weight a huge problem? Theres only 20 odd kilos difference between the GS adventure and the Cross.
Check out this offroad review of the Honda versus the Tiger Explorer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMxUBtweMbY
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Old 11-28-2012, 06:04 AM   #1747
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Nice! Thanks for that link... What's Honda USA waiting for? To always be the last to the party?
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Old 11-28-2012, 06:50 AM   #1748
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny_on_the_spot View Post
There is a lot speculation as to Cross' capabilities or lack thereof. I haven't seen any real evidence for or against. Is there anyone that can shed some more light on this?

Granted the GS has its chops off road and the Cross is really yet to do so. But other than requiring more aftermarket armor than the GS is there anything really holding it back? Is the extra weight a huge problem? Theres only 20 odd kilos difference between the GS adventure and the Cross.
The weight and the shortish suspension travel are the obvious items. Perhaps add the aluminium alloy main frame - the GS, KTM, Super Tenere, Guzzi Stelvio and even the Multistrada use steel, which will flex a lot more under stress without work-hardening and developing cracks.

Rear suspension travel claim is only 145mm, or half an inch more than typical road tourers such as the BMW RT series. That means the springing has to be firmer than on, say, a GS with 200mm or a Super Ten with 190, which in turn means the bike won't ride as well over corrugations, all else equal. Front travel on the Honda is 165, about the same as the Multi 1200.

OTOH, what the Crosstourer gains from the shorter suspension is a lower C of G and easier footing. And it still has as much travel as motocross bikes used to have in the early days of long-travel rear ends (where six inches/150mm was understood to be plenty, and more somewhat suspect )

Plus, from all accounts Honda's rear linkage is exceptionally well thought out. And at the front, the raked-out 28mm steering head angle should work well on loose surfaces.

I've read that the motor is all but un-stallable, too, so it will chug through slow stuff.

All speculation, and of course what you want to hear is some feedback from owners. Me too.

Still, I am in no doubt that it would be excellent on gravel roads. The limitations would show up if it got really rough.

Two more vids that might help:

I've started this one from moto.it on tarmac but shortly before a brief gravel-road section begins. Rider certainly seems enthusiastic on the hard-pack.

And then there's this one in more slippery going, with knobbies fitted. Appears to to be more than capable:

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Old 11-28-2012, 07:50 AM   #1749
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Nice! Thanks for that link... What's Honda USA waiting for? To always be the last to the party?
I was astounded that Honda USA opted to import the CB1100 but passed on the Crosstourer.
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Old 11-28-2012, 10:52 AM   #1750
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twinrider View Post
I was astounded that Honda USA opted to import the CB1100 but passed on the Crosstourer.
+1



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Old 11-28-2012, 11:10 AM   #1751
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twinrider View Post
I was astounded that Honda USA opted to import the CB1100 but passed on the Crosstourer.


We had a rep from American Honda HQ at our MSTA national rally in June and they had the CB1100 on display, along with survey sheets asking if we thought they should bring it in. I had a long conversation with the rep and told him that I thought they should bring the Crosstourer in instead. It sounded like they didn't think they could bring it in at a competitive price, especially since it was based on the VFR1200 platform, which is way overpriced. Also, he had some incorrect info on how many Super Teneres had been sold, as an example of why they didn't think large adventure bikes were selling well. At my request, he made a call back to HQ to verify his numbers and found that the numbers he was quoting were only from the previous quarter, not the previous year, as he at first thought.

In any case, they brought the 1100
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Old 11-28-2012, 01:17 PM   #1752
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moronic View Post
The weight and the shortish suspension travel are the obvious items. Perhaps add the aluminium alloy main frame - the GS, KTM, Super Tenere, Guzzi Stelvio and even the Multistrada use steel, which will flex a lot more under stress without work-hardening and developing cracks.

[snip]
+1. My speculation matches your speculation.

The ALi frame would probably be fine except in a really bad erosion ditch or something when the suspension has no more to give and the motor wants to exit out the bottom of the bike. Stroms have the same Ali frame main frame and only occasional suffer a problem. When they do though it's snap not bend.

Ali will develop micro cracks over time, but that said that is usually a pretty long time.

But work within the suspension parameters and I think you have a fine machine for most people. Especially the Starbucks crowd. But they are riding an image not a bike. People who do real riding will be well served,

The XTourer seems to me to be a lot better "UJM" than the CB. It's definitely got more U. Honda USA seem a bit clueless. Either that or they do know their customers and people on here are not "normal".
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GrahamD screwed with this post 11-28-2012 at 01:23 PM
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Old 11-28-2012, 09:10 PM   #1753
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moronic View Post
The weight and the shortish suspension travel are the obvious items. Perhaps add the aluminium alloy main frame - the GS, KTM, Super Tenere, Guzzi Stelvio and even the Multistrada use steel, which will flex a lot more under stress without work-hardening and developing cracks.

Rear suspension travel claim is only 145mm, or half an inch more than typical road tourers such as the BMW RT series. That means the springing has to be firmer than on, say, a GS with 200mm or a Super Ten with 190, which in turn means the bike won't ride as well over corrugations, all else equal. Front travel on the Honda is 165, about the same as the Multi 1200.

OTOH, what the Crosstourer gains from the shorter suspension is a lower C of G and easier footing. And it still has as much travel as motocross bikes used to have in the early days of long-travel rear ends (where six inches/150mm was understood to be plenty, and more somewhat suspect )

Plus, from all accounts Honda's rear linkage is exceptionally well thought out. And at the front, the raked-out 28mm steering head angle should work well on loose surfaces.

I've read that the motor is all but un-stallable, too, so it will chug through slow stuff.

All speculation, and of course what you want to hear is some feedback from owners. Me too.

Still, I am in no doubt that it would be excellent on gravel roads. The limitations would show up if it got really rough.

Two more vids that might help:

I've started this one from moto.it on tarmac but shortly before a brief gravel-road section begins. Rider certainly seems enthusiastic on the hard-pack.

And then there's this one in more slippery going, with knobbies fitted. Appears to to be more than capable:

Thanks for that, I appreciate your well thought out response. I've seen a couple of videos and it appears that no one has really tried to test the limits of the bike.

The weight seems to be a bit of a "gotcha" though. A couple of occasions I have not managed it well and come bloody close to dropping it, saved only by my meager physical strength.

I wonder what the impact of this would be through sand and watery mud and the like.

I have started getting jewelery for my bike. As I want to go camping on the New Year, I've started with pannier racks. I bought the Hepco-Becker as they will fit my existing panniers. I have also bought grip puppies and fenda-extenda

Next will be the centre stand and crash bars, finally when I'm getting close to taking on the rough stuff, it will be bash plate and air filter guard.

I'm also contempleting a set of Heidenau's for when I get serious.

Then onto the heavy stuff! That should add a solid 5-8Kgs to the bike! Now we are up around the 300 Kg mark wet without even getting on!

Not sure what to expect out of that!

I have done some initial riding on gravel and the low CG means excellent and firm handling on gravel. Quite surprising really. Additonally the Traction Control is somewhat of a bender avoider!

I will continue to post updates and monitor here for any further info.
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Old 11-29-2012, 05:02 PM   #1754
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Originally Posted by johnny_on_the_spot View Post
Thanks for that, I appreciate your well thought out response. I've seen a couple of videos and it appears that no one has really tried to test the limits of the bike.

The weight seems to be a bit of a "gotcha" though. A couple of occasions I have not managed it well and come bloody close to dropping it, saved only by my meager physical strength.

I wonder what the impact of this would be through sand and watery mud and the like.

...

I have done some initial riding on gravel and the low CG means excellent and firm handling on gravel. Quite surprising really. Additonally the Traction Control is somewhat of a bender avoider!

I will continue to post updates and monitor here for any further info.

Didn't realise you owned one. So I've explained to you why what works in practice should also work in theory.

I am looking forward to you telling us how she works in the sand.

My thoughts, for what they are worth, is that Honda has been very clever with this model in keeping the seat relatively low (or that is what I remember from my showroom "test-ride").

That means an ordinary rider who is no whiz on sand should be able to paddle along through the soft stuff and keep the bike upright. No way to cover big distances but makes it possible to get through short tough bits and back onto firmer going while keeping the rubber side down.

A bike such as the KTM Adventure R will be lighter and better and faster for people who can really ride sand, using power and high speed.

But for the rest of us, the shortness of the Honda possibly more than compensates for its greater weight. And we'd avoid desert journeys on either.

Expect to enjoy your reality check on this one.

I like a lot of what Honda has done with this model. Seems surprisingly well thought out. Can't believe they skipped the electronic cruise control tho.
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:06 PM   #1755
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hoping to sort out the touchy throttle although most are not experienceing this snatchy throttle like i, so anyway hoping it makes a difference for me

the bike is apart and in the shed waiting for the new bits to arrive: K&N and an FRK performance module

peace out bros
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