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Old 11-30-2012, 04:05 PM   #391
mdubya
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I can all but guaranty that pro level racers are over the limits of traction into and out of every corner, chopping the throttle to slide the front into the corner and lighting up the rear to a degree on the exit of every corner.

By pro level, I mean riders that get paid to race. Not club racers at the local track. Though, plenty of them are very fast and slide both ends consistently.

Any one here ever purposely close the throttle to induce a front end slide to scrub off speed?
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Old 11-30-2012, 04:13 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by mdubya View Post
I can all but guaranty that pro level racers are over the limits of traction into and out of every corner, chopping the throttle to slide the front into the corner and lighting up the rear to a degree on the exit of every corner.

By pro level, I mean riders that get paid to race. Not club racers at the local track. Though, plenty of them are very fast and slide both ends consistently.

Any one here ever purposely close the throttle to induce a front end slide to scrub off speed?
I agree with most of what you say, but I don't think 'pro' level racers slide the front wheel on purpose for some technical execution of an apex. On the other hand, it's no big deal to spin the back a little to finish a turn. Totally routine in the dirt.
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Old 11-30-2012, 04:25 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by mdubya View Post
I can all but guaranty that pro level racers are over the limits of traction into and out of every corner, chopping the throttle to slide the front into the corner and lighting up the rear to a degree on the exit of every corner.

By pro level, I mean riders that get paid to race. Not club racers at the local track. Though, plenty of them are very fast and slide both ends consistently.

Any one here ever purposely close the throttle to induce a front end slide to scrub off speed?
Only on the small, local TT track to get both ends sliding.
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Old 11-30-2012, 06:33 PM   #394
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Only on the small, local TT track to get both ends sliding.
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Old 11-30-2012, 06:44 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by Pantah View Post
I agree with most of what you say, but I don't think 'pro' level racers slide the front wheel on purpose for some technical execution of an apex. On the other hand, it's no big deal to spin the back a little to finish a turn. Totally routine in the dirt.
I remember my buddy and I asking Geoff May how the pro guys get through VIR's very tight turn 4 while holding such a tight line. His explanation very much involved scrubbing off speed by sliding the front end into the corner and lighting up the rear to square it off. These skills go hand in hand because lighting up the rear is what saves the front end slide from becoming a crash. In the meantime, you've gotten into the corner hotter and deeper and scrubbed off more speed in the process than you could with a conventional wheels in line, high, wide, and handsome type of line.

Aaron Stevenson of Corner Speed/Corner Spin was there too, and he suggested we might not want to try that technique. My friend was a regional heavy weight twins champion at the time.

You can learn the technique in the dirt, on mini supermoto, even on a bigger supermoto if everything is working right and you have the balls to do it.

Translating it to a full sized sport bike is something else altogether.

You may be right, once these guys get to the top level, they may have tidied things up, but I believe when they are talking about getting the bike 'working', they are talking about the ability to push both ends of the bike smoothly.

One thing for sure, every one of them has a dirt riding back ground of some type and they practice their skills by riding dirt bikes.
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Old 12-01-2012, 04:39 AM   #396
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I agree with most of what you say, but I don't think 'pro' level racers slide the front wheel on purpose for some technical execution of an apex.
They do. I think it was Mat Oxley who wrote an article about the various "graduate level" techniques of the truly gifted (and motivated), intentional front-tire tucks among them. On a related note, next time you are the Indy Mile, pay close attention to the entry of T1--flat trackers do it too.

This is why all this nonsense about countersteering or not is wide of the mark; these guys operate at a level far, far beyond the conventional.
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Old 12-01-2012, 05:11 AM   #397
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Bradley Smith (superbikeplanet.com)
"To be honest, a lot of it came down to ... there was cheating going on inside Moto2 this year," Smith told British media. "We were not one of those teams, and we suffered for it. There was nothing else we could do as a team to make our bike faster. It was just slow."

I must've missed he was in Moto2 this year? The accusations fly, with no proof of nothing once again. Getting a bit old really. Marquez slaughtered the field from the back TWICE in a short period of time, must've created some mental problems to certain riders who aren't performing particularly well.
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Old 12-01-2012, 05:18 AM   #398
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Bradley Smith (superbikeplanet.com)
"To be honest, a lot of it came down to ... there was cheating going on inside Moto2 this year," Smith told British media. "We were not one of those teams, and we suffered for it. There was nothing else we could do as a team to make our bike faster. It was just slow."

I must've missed he was in Moto2 this year? The accusations fly, with no proof of nothing once again. Getting a bit old really. Marquez slaughtered the field from the back TWICE in a short period of time, must've created some mental problems to certain riders who aren't performing particularly well.
Wasn't Smith with the Tech3 Moto2 team this year, that's why he's gone straight to the Tech3 team in MotoGP due to his contract?
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Old 12-01-2012, 11:31 AM   #399
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Originally Posted by HarveyMushman View Post
This is why all this nonsense about countersteering or not is wide of the mark; these guys operate at a level far, far beyond the conventional.
...but they still countersteer (the geometry change, not necessarily the input at the bars) into and out of every turn.


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Old 12-01-2012, 01:14 PM   #400
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...but they still countersteer (the geometry change, not necessarily the input at the bars) into and out of every turn.


but the counter steer on the way out is not the conventional countersteer.I see it as starting out as :steering into the slide then once they have the bike pointing where they want its a tweak the other way to stand the bike up
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Old 12-01-2012, 01:40 PM   #401
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but the counter steer on the way out is not the conventional countersteer.I see it as starting out as :steering into the slide then once they have the bike pointing where they want its a tweak the other way to stand the bike up
If the front tire is on the ground with enough traction any turn of the handlebars will cause the bike to change lean angle (counter-steering). Anytime the bike is maintaining any given lean angle the front tire is following the exact line of travel unless its in the air or very close to it. "Steering into the slide" is basically the rider being completely relaxed on the handlebars, the bike's geometry keeps the front wheel pointed in the direction of travel on its own. If the rider is tense on the bars it makes the bike less stable, if he makes a steering input it changes lean angle.

I can tell you from experience (although not Pro experience) that the only way to change lean angle at 100mph or so is with a deliberate counter-steer. Brakes causes the bike to stand up and/or push wider, throttle with a small slide will tighten your line a bit (but remember you are accelerating which widens your line) and body steering doesn't do shit. If you want the bike to change lean angle, you need to counter-steer just like you do on the street.

What MotoGP riders do with a motorcycle is amazing but it isn't magic.
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Old 12-01-2012, 01:46 PM   #402
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If the front tire is on the ground with enough traction any turn of the handlebars will cause the bike to change lean angle (counter-steering). Anytime the bike is maintaining any given lean angle the front tire is following the exact line of travel unless its in the air or very close to it. "Steering into the slide" is basically the rider being completely relaxed on the handlebars, the bike's geometry keeps the front wheel pointed in the direction of travel on its own. If the rider is tense on the bars it makes the bike less stable, if he makes a steering input it changes lean angle.

I can tell you from experience (although not Pro experience) that the only way to change lean angle at 100mph or so is with a deliberate counter-steer. Brakes causes the bike to stand up and/or push wider, throttle with a small slide will tighten your line a bit (but remember you are accelerating which widens your line) and body steering doesn't do shit. If you want the bike to change lean angle, you need to counter-steer just like you do on the street.

What MotoGP riders do with a motorcycle is amazing but it isn't magic.
yes...i agree with everything you are saying.
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Old 12-01-2012, 01:53 PM   #403
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Originally Posted by HarveyMushman View Post
They do. I think it was Mat Oxley who wrote an article about the various "graduate level" techniques of the truly gifted (and motivated), intentional front-tire tucks among them. On a related note, next time you are the Indy Mile, pay close attention to the entry of T1--flat trackers do it too.

This is why all this nonsense about countersteering or not is wide of the mark; these guys operate at a level far, far beyond the conventional.
OK, I give...Both you and Mdub know more about this stuff than me.

Regarding counter steering, though. I like to watch road racers peel off the wall to attack T1. This is at NASCAR ovals with a road course infield. The technique is pretty physical. No sweep to it at all. Definite bar inputs. I think they call it a pre-turn or something. And it's on the brakes. Point to point like I suggested before. Course these are not MotoGP riders, but something similar at Indy I think.

I'll pay closer attention to T1 entry at the Indy Mile next year. Thanks for the tip.
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Old 12-01-2012, 05:24 PM   #404
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Bradley Smith (superbikeplanet.com)
"To be honest, a lot of it came down to ... there was cheating going on inside Moto2 this year," Smith told British media. "We were not one of those teams, and we suffered for it. There was nothing else we could do as a team to make our bike faster. It was just slow."

I must've missed he was in Moto2 this year? The accusations fly, with no proof of nothing once again. Getting a bit old really. Marquez slaughtered the field from the back TWICE in a short period of time, must've created some mental problems to certain riders who aren't performing particularly well.
I too was very surprised at Smith's accusations. Was he stating what many suspected or was he spouting sour grapes?

MM did display some amazing ability to ride through the field. Was it all ability or was there something more........Hmmmm
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Old 12-01-2012, 05:28 PM   #405
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I too was very surprised at Smith's accusations. Was he stating what many suspected or was he spouting sour grapes?

MM did display some amazing ability to ride through the field. Was it all ability or was there something more........Hmmmm
It's MM's ability and the machine set-ups his ability makes possible until proven otherwise. So far all we have against is a half-baked magazine article and the mumblings of the noncompetitive.
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