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Old 12-03-2012, 12:44 PM   #451
trustme
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[

Just another quote to set the cat amongst the pigeons regarding learning on the dirt...
"It has often been suggested that American riders are able to control a sliding motorcycle because of their dirt track racing experience. Roberts (KR senior) disagrees: "I don't think that riding a dirt tracker teaches you anything very much that you can't learn on a road racer, but I think I learnt to be more agressive and determined because of dirt track racing in the States. When you are on the start line on your Yamaha among eighteen other guys on Harleys, and all the Harley fans in the crowd are throwing their beer cans at you, then that teaches you to go fast.""

Amazing what you can learn from the past,what's that saying? Standing on your grandfathers shoulders?

I should take this shit to The Perfect line, I could have a feeding frenzy [/QUOTE]

If that was the case why did they give J Lo to KR snr when he kept falling off. He got taken to a ranch in Modesto where a fat balding has been racer gave him the learn on dirt bikes.
KR is being a little disingenuous. Pretty much all the americans started off on flat track, so did Stoner. Aggresive & determined ,but also got them used to a bike being loose & moving around under you.
Nobody does Stoner corner at PI like Stoner, I'd suggest that is dirt track coming through.
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Old 12-03-2012, 01:23 PM   #452
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There's some slow mo video of Stoner heading through some corner. You can see the front tire is aimed at the inside of the corner, over the curb, on corner entry. When he gets to the apex, he's slid both front & rear so his front tire is right at the apex, right on the edge of the track. Pedrosa can do it too, but isn't as clean and consistent about it.
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Old 12-03-2012, 01:24 PM   #453
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Don't forget that quote was from 30 years ago Paul.

We tend to take a snippet of conversation and build a world of explanantion and reason around it when in reality it was simply an off the cuff remark, The Perfect Line is a great example of how to extrapolate anything into a world calamity.

If it's any help, I agree that the dirt bike training is hugely beneficial to road racing, learning to control at the margins of traction are where riding is at.
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Old 12-03-2012, 02:27 PM   #454
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.......it's going to be a LONG summer, huh?............
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Old 12-03-2012, 02:36 PM   #455
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.......it's going to be a LONG summer, huh?............
I guess you're not from the same hemisphere as me. Shovelled the walk 4 times in the last 24 hrs.
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Old 12-03-2012, 02:40 PM   #456
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.......it's going to be a LONG summer, huh?............
I'm not complaining, just re-sprung the 450EXC ready for a ride on sunday, just need to repair the low side damage to my sons race bike and all bike preps are done, had a great ride yesterday afternoon around the local hills.... what's too complain about?

Are you visiting our shores this summer for the classic festival?
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Old 12-03-2012, 07:03 PM   #457
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Drif and JNRobert have done a good job describing the technique. And yes, a mere mortal (painfully mortal) like me can do it. Best to practice in the dirt.

As you hopefully know, if you are not actively braking or actively having the throttle at least cracked open in a turn, you are going to crash. On a dirt bike, you brake early and get on the throttle early. So try getting off the brakes as you enter a turn, give a little throttle as you normally would, and then simply roll the throttle closed and this will induce the front end to slide. You will want to snatch the throttle open again pretty quickly so you don't eat dirt, but as you get more and more comfortable, you can milk the slides to be longer and more lurid.

The technique is pretty much the same on pavement. I have only done it on a supermoto bike, never a sport bike, which I gave up about 10 years ago. You can do it without cracking the throttle and simply by releasing the front brake where you might normally still be trail braking. You have to be pushing hard enough that you might feel you are into the turn too hot.

Using the front end slide to scrub off the excess speed and then using the throttle to right the bike will open your eyes to getting through the corner faster and tidier than you ever imagined. It will also give you a big thrill because you will now be in possession of an over the top, very advanced technique.
Ok. Thanks for the details. Starting to sound like a cool party trick... I will give it a go next summer... just for fun.

Still sounds like a cool way to have a DNF, than a reliable technique. But, gotta try.
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Old 12-03-2012, 07:59 PM   #458
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Originally Posted by mdubya View Post
Drif and JNRobert have done a good job describing the technique. And yes, a mere mortal (painfully mortal) like me can do it. Best to practice in the dirt.

As you hopefully know, if you are not actively braking or actively having the throttle at least cracked open in a turn, you are going to crash. On a dirt bike, you brake early and get on the throttle early. So try getting off the brakes as you enter a turn, give a little throttle as you normally would, and then simply roll the throttle closed and this will induce the front end to slide. You will want to snatch the throttle open again pretty quickly so you don't eat dirt, but as you get more and more comfortable, you can milk the slides to be longer and more lurid.

The technique is pretty much the same on pavement. I have only done it on a supermoto bike, never a sport bike, which I gave up about 10 years ago. You can do it without cracking the throttle and simply by releasing the front brake where you might normally still be trail braking. You have to be pushing hard enough that you might feel you are into the turn too hot.

Using the front end slide to scrub off the excess speed and then using the throttle to right the bike will open your eyes to getting through the corner faster and tidier than you ever imagined. It will also give you a big thrill because you will now be in possession of an over the top, very advanced technique.

For me, it is a very subtle thing and probably all but undetectable from a bystander, but you will know it when the front starts to slide.

What starts as a panic move to stop a sure crash turns out to be a very useful and effective technique.

I had not done this consistently for a few years on the supermoto track, but this past summer started doing it again, very sparingly. I use it mostly through a third gear (65 MPH) left hander that is slightly more than 90 degrees that needs to be finished tight so that you can straighten out a chicane which follows it.

I practice my supermoto skills in the dirt first.

I have not raced for many years, so the skills I like to learn are purely for cheap thrills and for having them at my disposal should I need them.

I look at track riding as an artistic expression; slides, wheelies, excessive and unnecessary lean angles are all part of that expression.
As far as putting out the fastest possible lap time goes that is still a ridiculous way to do it with a much easier way around it (the way Moto GP racers do) to scrub speed.

Carrying maximum corner speed involves having the tightest turning radius that traction allows for (maximum lean angle). How do you reach maximum lean angle? By evenly loading both the front and rear tires or slightly favoring the rear. If your sliding the front tire than your not at max lean angle which is reason #1 why that technique would only make your lap times slower. Reason #2 is sliding in general isn't a very effective way of slowing down. For example try skidding the rear tire under braking compared to modulating it to maintain traction.... which stopping distance ends up being shorter? On a correct corner entry the front will be fully loaded and only slipping slightly, at this point the rear usually has a lot of traction left to give. So if you want to scrub just a little speed why not simply use the rear brake? (which is what Moto GP riders do by the way). This way there's no sliding involved or weird on/off throttle chopping. Sliding the front is very risky and doesn't have any benefit to lap times what so ever.

There's plenty more reasons why purposely sliding the front would make your lap times slower but I'm not going into all of that. Just for an example think about this one. At 80mph your traveling at 117 feet per second. In the time it takes you to make your throttle blip (maybe 0.5 seconds) you've traveled about 50ft. Now imagine what would happen to your lap time if you simply adjusted your racing line to be either on the throttle and accelerating or at maximum lean angle for that 50ft instead of sliding the front tire and pushing wide.
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Old 12-03-2012, 08:27 PM   #459
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Great, you've solved it.

We get to talk about something else now. Cool.
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Old 12-03-2012, 08:41 PM   #460
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The sliding that i am talking about is not a deliberate front wheel lock up but a slide none the less from being on the edge of traction.I guess it wolud also have its own speed scrubbing action,so in my mind during the trail braking into the apex they sliding plenty
are there any more tests?I wanna see how dovi goes on that Duc.I am pickin he wont be No 4 after next year.He is my favourite at the moment tho
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Old 12-03-2012, 09:19 PM   #461
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We get to talk about something else now. Cool.
This thread is not limited for only one topic at a time.

So what you wanna talk?
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Old 12-04-2012, 06:33 AM   #462
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Croz's bio didn't give up too many cornering / sliding secrets but I have an excellent list of pubs near english race tracks, priorities!


Just for the sliding / cornering discussion, from Peter Cliffords 1982 book "The art & science of motorcycle racing" (Clifford was a technical journalist and road racer, engineer and editor of Motorcourse in the eighties).
A quote about the difficulties of describing handling techniqiues...

"There is no established language to convey the exact feeling that the handlebars give as the front wheel begins to slide and turn in, the timing required to gently ease on the throttle so that the rear wheel begins to slide in harmony and the weight is transferred from the front to back wheel, the front wheel being hauled into the inside of the corner by the pull of the chain."

Essentially this style has been around from the 1980's and is a well established method of aligning the bike in the direction you want it to go, Mamola was good at it.

Just another quote to set the cat amongst the pigeons regarding learning on the dirt...
"It has often been suggested that American riders are able to control a sliding motorcycle because of their dirt track racing experience. Roberts (KR senior) disagrees: "I don't think that riding a dirt tracker teaches you anything very much that you can't learn on a road racer, but I think I learnt to be more agressive and determined because of dirt track racing in the States. When you are on the start line on your Yamaha among eighteen other guys on Harleys, and all the Harley fans in the crowd are throwing their beer cans at you, then that teaches you to go fast.""

Amazing what you can learn from the past,what's that saying? Standing on your grandfathers shoulders?

I should take this shit to The Perfect line, I could have a feeding frenzy
Aside from my conversation with Geoff May (AMA Superbike racer for our foreign contingent, not the best, but no slouch either) an article I read by Randy Mamola really gave me the tools to try this. Must have been early 2000's, though I have no idea where I read the article. He talked about leaving the throttle closed after releasing the brakes to induce a slide which would scrub off speed and actually tighten your line. It took my until the mid 2000's to do it myself.

If you post to The Perfect Line, please provide us with a link.
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Old 12-04-2012, 06:37 AM   #463
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Ok. Thanks for the details. Starting to sound like a cool party trick... I will give it a go next summer... just for fun.

Still sounds like a cool way to have a DNF, than a reliable technique. But, gotta try.
It does seem to defy all sensible logic. But if you are at a level to start playing with it, you will see that it is a very controlled technique and not nearly as suicidal as it sounds.

Doing it in the dirt on a decent set of tires that you trust will give you a safe environment in which to try it. Once you get a feel for it, doing it on pavement takes a much smaller leap of faith.
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Old 12-04-2012, 06:41 AM   #464
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The sliding that i am talking about is not a deliberate front wheel lock up but a slide none the less from being on the edge of traction.I guess it wolud also have its own speed scrubbing action,so in my mind during the trail braking into the apex they sliding plenty
are there any more tests?I wanna see how dovi goes on that Duc.I am pickin he wont be No 4 after next year.He is my favourite at the moment tho
This is exactly right. There is no locking up involved. It it the front end equivalent to backing it in; the wheel keeps turning which is what makes the slide consistent and controllable. And the tube in your right hand is always there to save it at any moment.
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Old 12-04-2012, 07:32 AM   #465
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As far as putting out the fastest possible lap time goes that is still a ridiculous way to do it with a much easier way around it (the way Moto GP racers do) to scrub speed.

Carrying maximum corner speed involves having the tightest turning radius that traction allows for (maximum lean angle). How do you reach maximum lean angle? By evenly loading both the front and rear tires or slightly favoring the rear. If your sliding the front tire than your not at max lean angle which is reason #1 why that technique would only make your lap times slower. Reason #2 is sliding in general isn't a very effective way of slowing down. For example try skidding the rear tire under braking compared to modulating it to maintain traction.... which stopping distance ends up being shorter? On a correct corner entry the front will be fully loaded and only slipping slightly, at this point the rear usually has a lot of traction left to give. So if you want to scrub just a little speed why not simply use the rear brake? (which is what Moto GP riders do by the way). This way there's no sliding involved or weird on/off throttle chopping. Sliding the front is very risky and doesn't have any benefit to lap times what so ever.

There's plenty more reasons why purposely sliding the front would make your lap times slower but I'm not going into all of that. Just for an example think about this one. At 80mph your traveling at 117 feet per second. In the time it takes you to make your throttle blip (maybe 0.5 seconds) you've traveled about 50ft. Now imagine what would happen to your lap time if you simply adjusted your racing line to be either on the throttle and accelerating or at maximum lean angle for that 50ft instead of sliding the front tire and pushing wide.
Great argument, but these guys aren't trying to stop, they are just trying to scrub enough speed to make the corner. If they have carried more speed in 'than traction allows' and they are still able to complete the turn and exit carrying the same amount of corner speed, they have shaved some precious time.

You also need to account for the human factor. What is the quickest way for a motorcycle being operated by a human and not just one using the laws of physics to their maximum degree?

I have friends that have $1200 slipper clutches that they don't use because they turn quicker lap times with their wheels in line. But they are never going to reap the benefits if they don't start practicing the techniques of backing it in.

They also have radial brakes, calipers and master cylinders, yet they are not capable of operating them to the full extent which physics allows and they get passed on the brakes by better riders with conventionally mounted calipers and non-radial master cylinders.

Remember last year when Dovi purchased his own upgraded Brembo calipers, yet Stoner preferred the older ones? Which ones had greater potential by the laws of physics alone? Doesn't matter, because one works better for one guy, one works better for another.


I am not claiming that sliding the front in every corner, lap after lap, is the fastest way. But these guys all do it to a certain degree or another. To not be able to do it makes you less capable and unable to use the technique when it might be called for.

Go ride in the dirt and try not exceeding the limits of traction and see how quick you go. Pavement is just another form of soil.
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