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Old 12-04-2012, 11:46 AM   #31
anotherguy
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Having access to a dyno I've never screwed with it so no opinion. All I can say is try it and see. With mild mods like you plan it won't hurt anything. Post up your results. I'm curious.
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Old 12-04-2012, 02:09 PM   #32
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They'll all work to some degree or another in different ways.
I've gone the Power Vision route which yes is the most expensive of the bunch but I got it in my package from Fuel Moto when I did a header, slip-ons and a air cleaner. I actually get a little better MPG now than I did when the bike was stock and a shitload less heat coming off it. Would I do it again? Yep, it runs so much better I'd do it again. Do I mess with it, play with the software, etc, etc? No I don't.

If you only do the slip-ons you probably don't need to do anything right away, maybe ride it for a while and see how it goes.
If you do the air cleaner later you'll probably need to add fuel.

I know a lot of guys have had issues with pinging with the stock ECU tune and a tuner (nearly any tuner) will help.
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Old 12-04-2012, 03:56 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by anotherguy View Post
There is so much more to tuning than throwing some fuel at it. I resent the implication that we just hit a few keys and overcharge for that. You do you Xied and I'll tune a similar bike and we'll go for a ride. My bike will out-perform your Xied bike in every way. Power,start up cold/hot,efficiency and even sound. A properly tuned bike sounds crisp and responsive. Like I said save up and do it right. The bike runs fine now,put off the instant gratification and wait. You really do get what ya pay for.
Didn't mean to offend you.
Like I said, I'm new to all this hooha.
And my perception was that the gizmo just needs to be plugged in,
then a file dropped into it. I'm sorry if that is not the case.

I feel like I've mentioned before I'm not looking for every ounce of power.
I have no doubt that a properly tuned stage 1 will be the pants of one fitted with Xieds.


Onward.

Now all this talk has really got my head spinning.
3 things I'm mulling over now;

1. Adding a slipon with no other changes isn't going to melt my new motorcycle?

2. How the crap do you decide what tuner?

3. Someone mentioned their stage 1 cost 6 bills,
that seems awfully cheap. Is there an average $ here?
Maybe if I start wrapping my head around some numbers,
I can start to justify it to myself and the old lady.
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:18 PM   #34
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Have you read this?
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:23 PM   #35
blk-betty
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I just bought the SE Pro Super Tuner but have not installed it yet. What is your opinion of the Smart-Tune software? I know it won't be as good as a dyno tune, but do you think it is sufficent for a pipe and a/c upgrade? My bike is a '12 FLHR. I have a V&H Pro-Pipe on it now and have a SE Heavy Breather a/c that I plan to install with the tuner.
FWIW...when I installed the SEPST and downloaded the map for aftermarket exhaust and airfilter it did not run all that well during the first few SmartTune runs. This was a year ago and I don't remember everything but what I remember the most was that during hard acceleration beginning about 3500 rpm it literally felt like I was dragging an anchor...motor took forever to rev up to 5000 rpm. I inquired about this on the HTT site and was informed that was a function of the SmartTune feature......again don't remember the details but something about the way the ECM delivered fuel for data collection while in SmartTune mode I was told to run it a few more times in SmartTune and allow the software to "remap" after every run. Sure enough it got better and better with each download and run. I think I did about 5 or 6 runs.

The software instructions claim the VCI can store up to 15 minutes of ride time but I had several runs up to 40 minutes and have heard claims that it will store up to 45 minutes of data.

I never actully rode it with just the SEPST download map so I don't know how it might have run and the poor performance I got was due to running in the SmartTune mode.

I am absolutely certain that a dyno tune would give more performance and efficiency than the SmartTune as a dyno operator will not only adjust air fuel ratio but also spark advance, acceleration and deceleration mixtures at numerous throttle positions and rpm ranges. The only thing SmartTune changes is fuel air mixture. The software allows you to make changes in spark advance etc. if you want to but the concensus was "leave that to a professional dyno tuner". I din't make any of those changes, just a/f ratios.

In my opinion, the beauty of the SmartTune is that the engine tunve can be individually "refined" after a download to a state much closer to ideal than with something like a piggy-back style fuel controller that just adds fuel, without the need for an actual dyno tune.

If one was doing more than just mufflers and air-filter, say a cam and/or headwork I would strongly recommend an actual dyno tune over the SmartTune feature.
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:32 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Bloodweiser View Post


Onward.

Now all this talk has really got my head spinning.
3 things I'm mulling over now;

1. Adding a slipon with no other changes isn't going to melt my new motorcycle?

2. How the crap do you decide what tuner?

3. Someone mentioned their stage 1 cost 6 bills,
that seems awfully cheap. Is there an average $ here?
Maybe if I start wrapping my head around some numbers,
I can start to justify it to myself and the old lady.
Hopefully helpful...

#1 that is my understanding from what I've read and heard. If you only uncork one end it's not the end of the world but you also won't get much of anything from slip-ons without an air cleaner.

#2 I had a buddy (don't we all) who jumped through the hoops for me on his 2010 Ultra Limited. When it was time to do my 2011 I knew what he got and how it worked so I copied him after reading lots online and talking with Fuel Moto.

Price wise I spent more than twice the 6 bills example, probably something like 1450 but I really don't remember... I also spent 800 on a set of Ohlins for it so I'm not sure how good of an example I am if you're trying to save coin (totally worth it for Ohlins BTW). My 'Stage 1' was full exhaust, air cleaner and tuner, I installed it all which pretty much anyone could do on a HD if you own a vice grip and crecent wrench. I also don't feel the need to do anything else to it, I like it how it is.
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Old 12-04-2012, 05:21 PM   #37
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Bloodweiser

1) If just doing slipons without air filter I think you probably would be Ok but if you get any pinging on acceleration you need to do something more.

2) There are several true "tuners" out there like the SEPST (SE Street tuner is not really a tuner), Mastertune TTS, Dynojet Powervision, and maybe a few more and there are several of what I have been calling piggy back units that some call "fuel controllers" such as the Xieds, Patriot Top Fueler, Vance & Hines Fuel Pack etc.

As stated earlier my preference is for an actual Tuner as opposed to a fuel controller because it will provide a better state of tune than a controller regardless of whether one goes the route of an actual "dyno" tune.

Which "tuner" to buy/use is best determined by......first what your professional dyno tuner recommends which is usually what he is most familiar with....and second which one you think will be easist to use if you don't go the full dyno tune route. There is a wealth of knowledge over at HTT and this is the link to the Tuning section of the forum http://harleytechtalk.org/htt/index.php?board=13.0 There are many dyno tuners (some independent and some working in actual HD shops) that actively post over there and the "debates" between which tuner is best are often pretty heated.

For me personally, I choose the SE product because it was reported that it was a little more user friendly for novices and I'm a total idiot when it comes to this stuff, and my local HD dealer uses the SE stuff. I think most independent shops prefer the TTS or Dynojet products but I don't have an independent tuner in my area so if I ever felt the need for a professional dyno tune I would go to my local HD dealer. So SE for me as it's easier for a dumbass and used by my local and only HD dealer.

3) Cost of stage 1 is really all over the place depending on how far you stray from stock exhaust and "tuner" vs "controller". You can buy a set of slip-ons for anywhere from $200 to $600+ and use the OEM head pipes or you can buy a complete setup from one of severel manufacturers that include head pipes and mufflers. The Switchback comes delivered with a 2-1 setup and personally I would keep it that way. If I owned your bike my preference would be to eliminate the catalytic converter (I think it has one) and go with a complete setup like a Supertrapp Supermeg 2-1 if it's avaialble for your bike. However, from a HD standpont they are relatively quiet and some like a louder system. Been there done that and I perfer just a little louder than stock. A complete system will set you back about $600-800.

Air filter kits are generally between $100 and 200...remember you are buying more than just an air filter as the kit will come with a different mounting setup for increased air flow. You could drop a K&N in the stock air box but by itself it won't do much as the box is restricting flow.

Controller vs. Tuner is probably something like $100-250 vs $350-500.

Yea it all adds up quickly with an EFI bike. Gone are the days of buying cheap slip-ons, an air filter and a few jets but in return, if done smartly, you will have a bike that runs much better than a carb model.

One last point. Most HD guys like to change things after a little while.....different mufflers/headers, add a small bolt-in cam (which by the way can get you around 100 hp and 110tq on that 103" without headwork), go all out with headwork, increased compression and big lift cams. Buying a tuner now like the Powevision, TTS or SEPST, even though not technically needed, will allow you make those changes down the road where a fuel controller that you may have paid $200 for will become completely useless. Just another reason "I" went with a tuner. I spent over $4k to take an 88" 2002 FXST from stock to 109hp/107tq. I can do the same with my 103" RG with just bolt-in cams for less than $1.5K if I have the dealer do all the work and source the parts...something I am considering doing this winter.

Hope that helps and good luck convincing your bride to be.
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Old 12-04-2012, 05:29 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Cakeeater View Post
Thanks Blk-Betty,

Nice to get real feedback.

One question that I have is MPG. Did you (or others) see a drop when you go richer on the fuel mixture?

One thing I love about this Road Glide is that it gets good mpg. I would figure leaner would be better for mpg, or am I wrong? Or does it not matter?
Cakeeater

I am averaging about 45 mpg as setup.

Heat is more of an issue for me living in coastal SC where temps from June-Sept are generally 85 and up to 100 with 60-80% humidity. Not to bad while moving but if caught sitting in traffic on blacktop it gets really hot.
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Old 12-04-2012, 06:08 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by blk-betty View Post
FWIW...when I installed the SEPST and downloaded the map for aftermarket exhaust and airfilter it did not run all that well during the first few SmartTune runs. This was a year ago and I don't remember everything but what I remember the most was that during hard acceleration beginning about 3500 rpm it literally felt like I was dragging an anchor...motor took forever to rev up to 5000 rpm. I inquired about this on the HTT site and was informed that was a function of the SmartTune feature......again don't remember the details but something about the way the ECM delivered fuel for data collection while in SmartTune mode I was told to run it a few more times in SmartTune and allow the software to "remap" after every run. Sure enough it got better and better with each download and run. I think I did about 5 or 6 runs.

The software instructions claim the VCI can store up to 15 minutes of ride time but I had several runs up to 40 minutes and have heard claims that it will store up to 45 minutes of data.

I never actully rode it with just the SEPST download map so I don't know how it might have run and the poor performance I got was due to running in the SmartTune mode.

I am absolutely certain that a dyno tune would give more performance and efficiency than the SmartTune as a dyno operator will not only adjust air fuel ratio but also spark advance, acceleration and deceleration mixtures at numerous throttle positions and rpm ranges. The only thing SmartTune changes is fuel air mixture. The software allows you to make changes in spark advance etc. if you want to but the concensus was "leave that to a professional dyno tuner". I din't make any of those changes, just a/f ratios.

In my opinion, the beauty of the SmartTune is that the engine tunve can be individually "refined" after a download to a state much closer to ideal than with something like a piggy-back style fuel controller that just adds fuel, without the need for an actual dyno tune.

If one was doing more than just mufflers and air-filter, say a cam and/or headwork I would strongly recommend an actual dyno tune over the SmartTune feature.
Thanks for the info. Nice to have real world feedback! I plan to install the tuner and a/c soon, just haven't had time to get to it yet. The Pro-Pipe, SE a/c, and SE tuner are all I have planned at the moment, but I may upgrade cams later. Probably get a professional dyno tune at that point. This is my second FI Harley, but the first one I have modified. My first one was a '01 RKC which had the old Marelli FI system. Ran it with the stock map and a set of V&H Longshots for 30K miles before I sold it. With the torque of this new 103 in stock form I couldn't resist uncorking it a bit with the tuner.
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Old 12-04-2012, 06:12 PM   #40
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Having access to a dyno I've never screwed with it so no opinion. All I can say is try it and see. With mild mods like you plan it won't hurt anything. Post up your results. I'm curious.
Thanks. I'll report back after I get it installed.
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Old 12-04-2012, 10:15 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by blk-betty View Post
Cakeeater

I am averaging about 45 mpg as setup.

Heat is more of an issue for me living in coastal SC where temps from June-Sept are generally 85 and up to 100 with 60-80% humidity. Not to bad while moving but if caught sitting in traffic on blacktop it gets really hot.
Thanks. Good to know. I'm doing about 43 mpg average on my stock bike but a lot of that is pretty fast open West riding at 85 mph plus. MPG drops then.

I don't ride where it's as hot.

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Old 12-04-2012, 10:23 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by blk-betty View Post
Bloodweiser

1) If just doing slipons without air filter I think you probably would be Ok but if you get any pinging on acceleration you need to do something more.

2) There are several true "tuners" out there like the SEPST (SE Street tuner is not really a tuner), Mastertune TTS, Dynojet Powervision, and maybe a few more and there are several of what I have been calling piggy back units that some call "fuel controllers" such as the Xieds, Patriot Top Fueler, Vance & Hines Fuel Pack etc.

As stated earlier my preference is for an actual Tuner as opposed to a fuel controller because it will provide a better state of tune than a controller regardless of whether one goes the route of an actual "dyno" tune.

Which "tuner" to buy/use is best determined by......first what your professional dyno tuner recommends which is usually what he is most familiar with....and second which one you think will be easist to use if you don't go the full dyno tune route. There is a wealth of knowledge over at HTT and this is the link to the Tuning section of the forum http://harleytechtalk.org/htt/index.php?board=13.0 There are many dyno tuners (some independent and some working in actual HD shops) that actively post over there and the "debates" between which tuner is best are often pretty heated.

For me personally, I choose the SE product because it was reported that it was a little more user friendly for novices and I'm a total idiot when it comes to this stuff, and my local HD dealer uses the SE stuff. I think most independent shops prefer the TTS or Dynojet products but I don't have an independent tuner in my area so if I ever felt the need for a professional dyno tune I would go to my local HD dealer. So SE for me as it's easier for a dumbass and used by my local and only HD dealer.

3) Cost of stage 1 is really all over the place depending on how far you stray from stock exhaust and "tuner" vs "controller". You can buy a set of slip-ons for anywhere from $200 to $600+ and use the OEM head pipes or you can buy a complete setup from one of severel manufacturers that include head pipes and mufflers. The Switchback comes delivered with a 2-1 setup and personally I would keep it that way. If I owned your bike my preference would be to eliminate the catalytic converter (I think it has one) and go with a complete setup like a Supertrapp Supermeg 2-1 if it's avaialble for your bike. However, from a HD standpont they are relatively quiet and some like a louder system. Been there done that and I perfer just a little louder than stock. A complete system will set you back about $600-800.

Air filter kits are generally between $100 and 200...remember you are buying more than just an air filter as the kit will come with a different mounting setup for increased air flow. You could drop a K&N in the stock air box but by itself it won't do much as the box is restricting flow.

Controller vs. Tuner is probably something like $100-250 vs $350-500.

Yea it all adds up quickly with an EFI bike. Gone are the days of buying cheap slip-ons, an air filter and a few jets but in return, if done smartly, you will have a bike that runs much better than a carb model.

One last point. Most HD guys like to change things after a little while.....different mufflers/headers, add a small bolt-in cam (which by the way can get you around 100 hp and 110tq on that 103" without headwork), go all out with headwork, increased compression and big lift cams. Buying a tuner now like the Powevision, TTS or SEPST, even though not technically needed, will allow you make those changes down the road where a fuel controller that you may have paid $200 for will become completely useless. Just another reason "I" went with a tuner. I spent over $4k to take an 88" 2002 FXST from stock to 109hp/107tq. I can do the same with my 103" RG with just bolt-in cams for less than $1.5K if I have the dealer do all the work and source the parts...something I am considering doing this winter.

Hope that helps and good luck convincing your bride to be.

Good information. What cracks me up about HD is the potential for much more HP. Clearly, they get by the EPA by strangling the bike ...the bike obviously runs very lean, very limited intake, restrictive mufflers, and mild cam lifts. It seems very easy to change a few things to get much more power out of the bikes.

Plus, there's clearly a decent business model to make many owners buy upgrades to get that extra 20 to 50 percent HP boost.

What also cracks me up is the serious face HD puts on the "race only" screaming eagle applications. 99 percent of "race only" engine parts are going on street bikes, which HD knows, and we all know.

Hopefully the EPA doesn't go more Nazi -ike and shut that down in the future.

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