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Old 12-05-2012, 07:52 PM   #16
roger 04 rt
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Originally Posted by BigDave75 View Post
Good question Roger.
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i believe both sensors were removed/replaced via the AT300.....again, i had a professional tuner (many, many years in the business) handle the installation and i no longer own the moto.
Thanks guys. That's my understanding. Both O2 sensors get pulled and one or two get installed to drive the Autotune function. Although Autotune can do a lot, it still requires human intervention. Also, the BMS-K is left without any O2 sensor inputs and loses all its Adaptation functions. Even the best tuner can only tune for the conditions at the moment of the tune.

There's another likely issue too. When the Motronic in my 1150 doesn't see an O2 sensor it outputs a 10% fluctuating mixture as part of its Limp Home function set. I don't know if the BMS-K does that too but if it were me I'd want to know that. You wouldn't see it on the usual dyno tune "pulls" since they are WOT. If they add enough fuel you might not notice it.

Sorry to be a broken record but I'd be interested in running a 1200 with dual LC-1s. No dyno tuning needed to richen the mixture, and you end up with full BMS-K functionality AND you get twin AFR datalogging. There is some benchtop wiring to do before installation but it is pretty potent when done.
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Old 12-05-2012, 09:25 PM   #17
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I did a big post on my experiences of putting a PC-V/AT on a 2012 R1200GS back in September. I was generally happy with the results.

One thing I will add is the PC-V has one available feature that not of the other fuel modification solutions have (as far as I'm aware) - you can use the PC-V to detune the engine to improve fuel economy. This is one of the factors that I found attractive with the PC-V given my interests in riding in remote areas. I'm planning a trip next summer to do the James Bay / Trans Taiga Highway trip in northern Quebec. There is one stretch where you have to ride 600 kms between fuel stops.

Since the PC-V can store two maps, I will have my regular map which is more performance oriented in all but the narrow cruising band and a second map that I will program to have AFRs in the 15-16 range.


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Old 12-06-2012, 03:56 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by bigbadandugly View Post
I did a big post on my experiences of putting a PC-V/AT on a 2012 R1200GS back in September. I was generally happy with the results.

One thing I will add is the PC-V has one available feature that not of the other fuel modification solutions have (as far as I'm aware) - you can use the PC-V to detune the engine to improve fuel economy. This is one of the factors that I found attractive with the PC-V given my interests in riding in remote areas. I'm planning a trip next summer to do the James Bay / Trans Taiga Highway trip in northern Quebec. There is one stretch where you have to ride 600 kms between fuel stops.

Since the PC-V can store two maps, I will have my regular map which is more performance oriented in all but the narrow cruising band and a second map that I will program to have AFRs in the 15-16 range.


BigBadandUgly
I remember your post on the PCV well. I agree that the PC-V/AT is a very good tuning product and I don't wish to say that adding one is not a good decision. My aim is to compare the PC-V and LC-1 because there are trade-offs and big differences. I'm going to make some comments below which I believe to be true, for the sake of discussion, but I may make errors. It's a big topic and I'll try to keep it from getting too long.

Fuel Table Mapping, Fuel Additions or Subtractions
The main capability of all Power Commanders is that by watching the TPS signal (throttle) and RPM it allows the user to add or subtract percentages of fuel in a matrix of values (The Innovate Motorsports LC-1 does not have this capability). Power Commanders are mainly for Open Loop fueling although the PC-III WB for BMW R1150/1100 was something of a unique product which maintained Closed Loop on those bikes. Some notes: RPM is inferred from Injector firing rate. When you decelerate with closed throttle there are no injector pulses (Overrun Fuel Cutofff), so there is no RPM info for those intervals. The TPS/RPM matrix of values is not the same as the Motronic or BMS-K table of values so the maps don't line up. I don't think this is very important but good to know.

The biggest thing to think about regarding modification of the fueling table by using a Power Commander is whether you can find a tuner who is better than the tuners at BMW who spent thousands of hours on the Fueling Tables doing two jobs: figuring out how much air was in the cylinder at each RPM/TPS point (called VE for Volumetric Efficiency) and then deciding what target AFR was best. Then putting in a best-guess value for injector pulse length. I don't think I could afford the time to do this well, assuming that I could find a qualified tuner. However, a tuner should be able to map a part of the table well that may be tailored to a specific application.

The argument I hear for remapping is a change of exhaust or a change of intake, making the system more free flowing ... and therefore needing a change to the fueling table balance (more air some places, less air others). I'm sure there are good arguments here, which I'm not qualified to make, for changing intake/exhaust components. My general understanding is that exhausts and intakes are tuned systems that are inherently trade-offs in performance at various RPMs. It is entirely possible, even likely that a free-flowing exhaust could reduce the VE of an engine at various RPMs even while it increased VE in other places.

If you want leaner or richer mixtures but prefer to leave the VE tables (fuel tables) undisturbed (believing like I do that the BMW engineering team is better than every solo tuner), there are other better ways to change the overall mixture.

Changing Mixture
The mixture throughout the fuel map in every R1100, R1150 and R1200 that has a catalytic converter and O2 Sensor(s), is monitored and enforced by the switching point of the stock O2 sensor, which switches at a fuel ratio of Lambda = 1 (14.7:1 for gasoline or 14.1:1 for E10). This is a good point to mention that although the fuel tables are designed for gasoline, the O2 sensor allows the Motronic or BMS-K, through a process called Adaptation, to learn which fuel is in the tank and Adapt to it. E10 is 4% leaner than gasoline. A key point is that when you disconnect the O2 sensor(s), your motorcycle can no longer Adapt to Ethanol or other fuel differences.

The PC-V AT and LC-1 both allow you to change the overall mixture of the motorcycle but they do that in very different ways. The PC-V adds and subtracts fuel by the matrix mentioned in the previous paragraph BUT with the O2 sensors disconnected from BMS-K, keeping it from Adapting-Out the added (or subtracted) fuel.

With the LC-1, you add (or subtract, yes it can create a leaner mixture if you want) fuel by changing the Lambda switching point to a new value. For instance if you want 6% more fuel added you program it to Lambda = 0.94. if you want a 6% leaner mixture you program it to lambda = 1.06. The LC-1s replace the stock O2 sensor with a Wideband O2 whose transition point can be programmed. This preserves the full functionality of the Motronic or BMS-K ECU.

I found that merely reprogramming Lambda and adding fuel makes a big difference in performance, without any retuning of the BMW VE (fueling) tables. I would try this before thinking about an aftermarket exhaust or intake (unless of course you're making a style or sound decision).

Closed Loop, Don't give it up lightly
As I mentioned, the LC-1 is a controller and Wideband O2 sensor that replaces the existing O2 sensor(s) and plugs into the O2 sensor harness. That allows the BMS-K or Motronic to maintain its full functionality (that we paid thousands of dollars for). The key thing you keep is Closed Loop operation and Adaptation Values.

The PC-V/AT with one or two Wideband O2 sensors allows you to monitor the fuel additions or subtractions you've made (it can even help you make them) but it does not pass its signal to the BMS-K. This means the BMS-K is forever more stuck in Open Loop without any ability to calculate Adaptation Values. In my opinion, this is a major shortcoming of the PC-V. Even if you believe that your tuner can do better than BMW, his or her tune is only for the conditions under which it was tuned.

If the battery voltage changes as it does while charging, if the air filter gets restricted as it does by filtering the air and collecting dirt, if the VE of the cylinders change as they do from carbon or fuel residue there or on the valves, if any of the sensors are inaccurate or if you change the Ethanol content of the fuel from 0% to 5 or 10%, the AFR of your motorcycle will change and the BMS-K or Motronic will only partially be able to partially correct some of the changes. The AFR errors can easily reach 10% which means that you could have tuned for 13.8:1 at a point and the actual fueling could get as lean as 15.2:1, that's perhaps an extreme but half that error would not be uncommon, and I've measured such errors.

A further problem with disconnecting the O2 sensor(s) is that the Motronic (and I believe BMS-K) assumes a fault, and triggers a Limp Home fueling sequence that varies the mixture by about 10%--a very wide spread.

Price
PC-V with dual Autotune (and dual Wideband sensors) can be purchased for $600 to $700--plus whatever Dyno time you believe you need.

LC-1 is $160 at Amazon and others, including the Bosch LSU 4.2 Wideband O2 sensor, an AFR gauge and datalogging. Two therefore cost $320.

The biggest problem with the LC-1 is that it doesn't come with a connector for the BMS-K or Motronic O2 Sensor input connection. You have to buy one, or cut it off your stock O2 sensor and wire it to the LC-1 cable.

I hope this helps by expanding the discussion of options.
RB

roger 04 rt screwed with this post 12-06-2012 at 06:31 AM
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Old 12-06-2012, 06:27 AM   #19
hillbillypolack
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I've asked this question a number of times with no results, but will inquire again:

In the upper Midwest (Michigan, Ohio, Indiana), is there a reputable dyno tuner who is familiar with setting up a GS w/ PC5?

I'd appreciate any leads or information.
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Old 12-06-2012, 07:16 AM   #20
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I've asked this question a number of times with no results, but will inquire again:

In the upper Midwest (Michigan, Ohio, Indiana), is there a reputable dyno tuner who is familiar with setting up a GS w/ PC5?

I'd appreciate any leads or information.

I'm on the left coast so I use EDR (Eric Dorn Racing) for all my bikes.

Good luck .
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Old 12-09-2012, 06:40 AM   #21
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I'm on the left coast so I use EDR (Eric Dorn Racing) for all my bikes.

Good luck .
Hello BigDave, did you get your exhaust and tuner on your GS? Just wondering how its going, I am gonna inquire at my first service about getting mine set up. D.
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Old 12-09-2012, 10:12 AM   #22
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Hello BigDave, did you get your exhaust and tuner on your GS? Just wondering how its going, I am gonna inquire at my first service about getting mine set up. D.

My bike was dropped off at the BMW shop yesterday for the 600 mile service, I am picking it up next Saturday and taking it to EDR for the PC-V and dyno map. Eric the owner of EDR has done all of my bikes for about the last ten years and it has been a huge improvement every time. It is always nice to see the before and after dyno sheets to see what you get for your money, but as everyone knows its more about how the bike runs, throttle response, etc.

I didn't buy a GS to make it fast, but I would like to smooth it out a bit!

It will probably be three weeks or so before its done as I have also ordered the Ohlin's TTX ESA shocks and a set of Woody's wheels so it is all getting done at once.

I'll post the dyno sheets when I get them.
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Old 12-09-2012, 05:02 PM   #23
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Thanks BigDave, I actually rode my bike today and am adjusting to an OTJ ( other than Japanese) bike. I love it so far. Looking forward to the Akra install. D.
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Old 12-10-2012, 02:23 PM   #24
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Thanks BigDave, I actually rode my bike today and am adjusting to an OTJ ( other than Japanese) bike. I love it so far. Looking forward to the Akra install. D.

Thanks D, the sun was out yesterday (for a few hours) and it was killin me!!!
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