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Old 12-10-2012, 02:33 PM   #31
DAKEZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ParaMud View Post
So someone crashes into me and I have to pay for some of the damages?
Why did you allow them to crash into you?
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Old 12-10-2012, 03:30 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Offcamber View Post
Live Free or Die
Just remember that logically speaking, one, the other, or both expressions can be true.
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Old 12-10-2012, 05:04 PM   #33
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For what it's worth, I'll spend a minute ranting like a loon for a minute, then we can continue our regularly scheduled programming....

I wear a helmet almost all of the time. Almost.

When visiting a new state, I look /ask around if it seems to be a compulsorily helmet state, if it is a helmet-free zone then I don't immediately shed the lid for hair follicle freedom, even though the ones that are left attached to my head sure deserve a good time for hanging in there.

Instead, I keep the lid on and save keeping it off for trips from one end of the plaza to another, or going just across the street from the gas station to the coffee shop. Something I'd feel comfortable doing on a bicycle with speeds that never exceed what the pistons of my legs could ever motivate a 21 speed and am even more highly aware of everything going on around me and ride super-would-make-grandma-proud safe. My destination is almost never farther than I can see from my origin.

It's convenient, that's for sure, but I'd feel naked riding around any more than that without a helmet on.


Now, I understand the other side where it should be optional.... Except, that in a lot of states it's not, and it doesn't stop a single person from getting on their bike and going for a ride and enjoying it. Not. One. Soul. Having a mandatory helmet on does make perfect sense, as motorcycling by itself increases your risk of an accident by a significant margin. It's not "if", but "when", right?

The guys who think they'll never be in an accident: You're delusional. Seriously. Go play golf in a lighting storm, drive your car across train tracks when the lights are blinking, run around the house with scissors in your hand, be sure to never use safety goggles around power tools, eat raw chicken uncooked like a man, be sure not to bother grounding your house wiring, blow your fiery mane (or beard) of hair while in the tub and while you're at it in bubbly bathtub bliss consider even more fun and creative ways to become a member of the Darwin Hall of Fame.

Or you might spend just a minute to consider what your wife, kids, parents or anyone else in your life would feel if they had to see you in the ER with half your face laying on some road across the county waiting to be sprayed off by some poor soul at the fire department. You forget that you might not die, but you might just live and the life you had is still erased. Oh wait, that doesn't happen to you, it happens to "those other guys", right?


That's my two cents.
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Old 12-10-2012, 06:13 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Epoch of Entropy View Post
motorcycling by itself increases your risk of an accident by a significant margin. It's not "if", but "when", right?
WRONG! Don't buy the lie. MOST riders NEVER crash. Most (as in the majority) ride all their days without injury or crashing.

And so what if you do crash! Not all crashes end in disaster. I have been down 4 times on road due to road contaminants (countless times off-road) and each time I was up and riding away within moments. While I have sustained many broken bones and injuries in my lifetime NONE of them are related to riding or crashing motorcycles.

Yes gear has saved me from injury. I have no doubt in my mind that it has. BUT I chose to wear it. I didn't have it on because some law said I had to. It should be a choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epoch of Entropy View Post

The guys who think they'll never be in an accident: You're delusional.
It is you that has bought into the delusion. Stop parroting myths and start living.

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DAKEZ screwed with this post 12-10-2012 at 06:20 PM
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Old 12-10-2012, 06:22 PM   #35
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I started wearing a full coverage helmet for off roading in 1970. It was rare to see anyone wearing a full coverage back then. It was great for blasting through trees and brush. I've worn just full coverages ever since.....except one time last year in Texas. It was about 200 degrees and I was on the Willow City Loop west of Austin. Its a slow, curvy, deserted stretch of road so I slipped the Shoei off and rode naked. I must say, it felt damn good!..
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Old 12-10-2012, 06:27 PM   #36
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Old 12-10-2012, 06:28 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by sleazy rider View Post
Explain to me the basis of seat belt laws then. All 50 states require their use.
The basis of seatbelt laws is the same coercive, nanny-state, bullying, protect-you-from-yourself bullshit.

Also, you're not entirely factually correct there. NH does not require seatbelt use for adults.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sleazy rider View Post
We elect representatives to do that voting. The US is a representative republic, not a democracy. If it reduces major risk, why is it a bad thing? Having bounced down the road a couple times off a motorcycle, I believe helmets are good. I've had four auto accidents in the 40 years of driving too. The ones prior to seat belt laws had injuries involving broken bones, after the law's enactment, none. Go figure.
We elect representatives to conduct necessary governance, NOT to be our parents. They have no right to violate our rights, to force us to do as they think we ought to at gunpoint.

I firmly believe that helmets are a very good thing, and always use one when riding. I did so back in CA before the helmet law was passed. I have done so every time living in two states that do not have helmet laws since. I also always wear my seatbelt, regardless of the laws. A helmet LAW is not the same as a HELMET.

We each have the equal right to decide our own risk tolerance and levels. You think riding without a helmet is dumb. So do I. But our moms and doctors think that riding at all is dumb. They don't have the right to decide what is too dangerous for us. We don't have the right to decide what is too dangerous for others. It's that simple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerWilco View Post
You have to have auto insurance in order to secure financial protection for the OTHER party, and their property, from YOU. One does not damage someone else just because no helmet is worn.
Mandatory helmet-use laws and mandatory auto-insurance laws are not quite the same thing.
+1. This.

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Old 12-10-2012, 06:38 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post

Well, kind of... It's called Rugby.

Your football reference is often parroted in these matters but is NOT applicable in any way. Football is a CONTACT SPORT. Riding a motorcycle is not.
What a silly RESPONSE from you.

In a crash riding a motorcycle is a CONTACT SPORT. You must NOT have ever crashed riding a motorcycle. I've crashed twice in 50 plus years of street riding (neither was my fault) and both times there were deep scratches/gouges on the helmet I was wearing. I have had many crashes riding in dirt bike competition but I don't count those. Of course I wore a helmet and proper gear.
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Old 12-10-2012, 06:44 PM   #39
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I think it should be mandatory for the young and those learning. At least then they'll own a helmet and be used to wearing one (and will hopefully see the benefit)

After that it should be optional.

It's the law down here, but you can get away with it especially around town. I always wear mine as I prefer my visor to be encrusted with with the local flying fauna and not my teeth.
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Old 12-10-2012, 06:44 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epoch of Entropy View Post
For what it's worth, I'll spend a minute ranting like a loon for a minute, then we can continue our regularly scheduled programming....

I wear a helmet almost all of the time. Almost.

When visiting a new state, I look /ask around if it seems to be a compulsorily helmet state, if it is a helmet-free zone then I don't immediately shed the lid for hair follicle freedom, even though the ones that are left attached to my head sure deserve a good time for hanging in there.

Instead, I keep the lid on and save keeping it off for trips from one end of the plaza to another, or going just across the street from the gas station to the coffee shop. Something I'd feel comfortable doing on a bicycle with speeds that never exceed what the pistons of my legs could ever motivate a 21 speed and am even more highly aware of everything going on around me and ride super-would-make-grandma-proud safe. My destination is almost never farther than I can see from my origin.

It's convenient, that's for sure, but I'd feel naked riding around any more than that without a helmet on.


Now, I understand the other side where it should be optional.... Except, that in a lot of states it's not, and it doesn't stop a single person from getting on their bike and going for a ride and enjoying it. Not. One. Soul. Having a mandatory helmet on does make perfect sense, as motorcycling by itself increases your risk of an accident by a significant margin. It's not "if", but "when", right?

The guys who think they'll never be in an accident: You're delusional. Seriously. Go play golf in a lighting storm, drive your car across train tracks when the lights are blinking, run around the house with scissors in your hand, be sure to never use safety goggles around power tools, eat raw chicken uncooked like a man, be sure not to bother grounding your house wiring, blow your fiery mane (or beard) of hair while in the tub and while you're at it in bubbly bathtub bliss consider even more fun and creative ways to become a member of the Darwin Hall of Fame.

Or you might spend just a minute to consider what your wife, kids, parents or anyone else in your life would feel if they had to see you in the ER with half your face laying on some road across the county waiting to be sprayed off by some poor soul at the fire department. You forget that you might not die, but you might just live and the life you had is still erased. Oh wait, that doesn't happen to you, it happens to "those other guys", right?


That's my two cents.
Fair rant. I have the anti-rant but mine is much shorter.
Why do you think it should be your job (don't mean you specifically but metaphorically) to decide what protective gear another person wears while they perform a given task? You compared riding without a helmet to other activities (see blue above) There are no laws regulating apparel for those things.
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Old 12-10-2012, 07:13 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barnone View Post
What a silly RESPONSE from you.

In a crash riding a motorcycle is a CONTACT SPORT. You must NOT have ever crashed riding a motorcycle. I've crashed twice in 50 plus years of street riding (neither was my fault) and both times there were deep scratches/gouges on the helmet I was wearing. I have had many crashes riding in dirt bike competition but I don't count those. Of course I wore a helmet and proper gear.
See post 34 for my personal crash record.

In football one goes out for the express purpose of smashing into an opponent or avoiding getting smashed into by an opponent but fully expecting to.

I don't know about you but I ride EVERY day in all weather and have been doing so for many many years. I NEVER go out on my motorcycle expecting to get smashed into. I have NEVER been smashed into. It is NOT a contact Sport. The whole purpose of riding is to have fun and don't get hit.

I once (when I was 19) smashed into a cop car that was driving around without lights on at 2 AM but I don't even count that one because other than the large knobbie infused dent in his drivers door there was no harm done. (I didn't even drop the bike)

You say you " crashed twice" and "neither was my fault"

"Fault" matters not. It is your responsibility as a rider to avoid contact. I am not saying it NEVER happens... I am saying that from everything I have read learned and studied over the years 98% of motorcycle crashes could have been or should have been avoided by THE RIDER.

Not meaning it was the riders fault... Just that he/she could have avoided all but a very few events by paying attention, having a motor in good working order, knowing how to ride and not riding impaired.

I never ride without a helmet but it isn't because of a law. I wear them to keep the rocks, dirt, bugs, and wind out of my face. I wear them for comfort not safety.

I am very much
in favour of repealing any and all helmet and seat belt laws for anyone above the age of 18. An adult should chose for him/herself if they want to wear one.
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DAKEZ screwed with this post 12-10-2012 at 08:29 PM
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Old 12-10-2012, 07:31 PM   #42
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The issue for me is not helmets... I live in Iowa... A choice state and I with very very very few exceptions always ride with helmet. But where does it stop? What if government decides motorcycling is too dangerous, or sport bike accidents are xx% of accidents, ban them.... Beauty of America, or used to be. And it's not how the rest of the world thinks.
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Old 12-10-2012, 08:03 PM   #43
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thanks Dakaz for the voice of resone. IMO everything in life has risks and rewards. for some perspective. in mn. this year there were about 50 motorcycle fatalities. 230000 registered bikes and 400000 licensed riders. figureing some bikes never get out that's roughly a 1 in 4000 chance of being in a fatal accident. but add some experience,take away the excess drinking and squid behavior and the odds go much longer. in my case deer are my biggest worry. i guess my odds are 1 in 10,000. i seldom wear a helmet. but i accept the risk. and enjoy the reward . and until you have ridden without a helmet enough to relax you can't know what you can't know. for what it's worth, of course i wouldn't drive a race car or ride hard offroad without one.
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Old 12-10-2012, 09:04 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ray h View Post
Fair rant. I have the anti-rant but mine is much shorter.
Why do you think it should be your job (don't mean you specifically but metaphorically) to decide what protective gear another person wears while they perform a given task? You compared riding without a helmet to other activities (see blue above) There are no laws regulating apparel for those things.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ColonelDibsies View Post
The issue for me is not helmets... I live in Iowa... A choice state and I with very very very few exceptions always ride with helmet. But where does it stop? What if government decides motorcycling is too dangerous, or sport bike accidents are xx% of accidents, ban them.... Beauty of America, or used to be. And it's not how the rest of the world thinks.


Nice to see that a few people in this country still grasp the concept of liberty.

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Old 12-11-2012, 02:47 AM   #45
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I'm from Belgium and here we not only are required to wear a helmet, but also gloves and shoes that cover your ankles (because too many motorcycle accidents resulted with broken ankles). I always wear full protection (even in summer - not that our summers are extremely hot (max 30 to 35C - and I understand that when it's even warmer it's not comfortable to put on a leather jeans and pants so people in those countries / states are less compelled to do so).
I'm used to it and feel naked even when I don't wear my gloves. Sometimes in summer here you see people in shorts/tshirt with helmet on a motorcycle and I think it's crazy, the smallest accident will hurt you a lot..

Anyway, is it correct for me to think that the parts of the usa that do not have helmet laws are also the parts with a less dense population ? I get that impression from reading ride reports here ?

Everyones opinion about helmet laws is different because you only look at your personal situation. If you live in a rural area, sure you may not need the need for wearing a helment / atgatt.
I read here someone post driving is to have fun. We all want that, and it's nice when you only drive on open empty roads where you only pass a handful of people in a hour, and can see all trafic coming at you from miles ahead and you only drive when it's nice weather. Then indeed you do not have a lot of risk to crash or injure yourself. But that's not everyones driving conditions.

When I read the NY commuters thread ( http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125065 ) it's like everyone is out there to kill motorcyclists :( In other cities it's the same. Here in Belgium it's almost also the same, the whole country is urban with a lot of cities, densely populated, and on almost every corner there's a car drivers that want to do a stupid things that can kill you.

My goal is also to enjoy my ride, but to survive it. I have to deal almost daily with a just parked car that will swing its door open when I pass, or that backs out of a driveway without seeing me, or that changes lanes when I split lanes trough traffic jam on the highway, or that woman on the phone, or the young punk that just has his driver license and thinks he can speed and has right of way on every corner, or that even passes me on the right over a bicycle path because he wants to speed in a school area, or the retired people with slow reactions, or the sleepy commuter that hasn't seen me because it's still/already dark or it's pouring rain, ...

Those of us that have to drive a motorcycle daily in these conditions, do feel a need for helmets or atgatt.. The risk of having an accident is just too big. When something happens, I want to be protected, so I can just stand up, check the bike is ok, and continue my trip, without a visit to the hospital. And then I don't think it's too weird that wearing a helmet is mandatory. Without any protection, a lot of small accidents you now don't hear about, would be much more serious and require medical help.

Like I wrote, many motorcycle accidents ended with broken ankles, so we are now required to wear appropriate shoes. So they took away my liberty to wear flipflops whilst riding.. At least I don't need to pay more taxes / medical insurance to pay for people that were stupid enough not to wear protection and broke their ankles. Or who crashed without a helmet and are in coma for months or years.

Most riders indeed never crash. Because it only takes one serious crash without helmet/gear to stop being a rider.
It's also my opinion that it's not a matter of 'if' but 'when'. I drive daily in situations that remind me that 'when' may be today. Someone else will ride in a totally different environment and have a different opinion.

aeneas screwed with this post 12-11-2012 at 03:00 AM
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