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Old 12-12-2012, 11:12 AM   #16
Barry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ParaMud View Post
I posted the rear brake in an emergency thread and was remembering back to my MSF days.
In MSF we did a exercise where, in the middle of a turn, you have to stand the bike up to brake.

Well that is almost never an option in real life. If you stand the bike up in a turn, you will either go slamming into the side wall of a canyon, or into oncoming traffic.

Why is the class teaching this?

Saying the tire can only do one thing at a time, turning or braking. That is completely false. Most of the time the tire is not even close to it's braking loose point. As long as you apply the brakes smoothly, even at the apex of a turn to brake for an oncoming car rock in the road.

I think by teaching this, they are teaching us bad habits.
There are tons of people doing this on youtube videos.

Your opinion?
Wrong. This is a VERY good skill to have. If you can't stop leaned over within a needed distance, the ONLY way to do so is stand the bike up, get hard on the binders and 1) stop if needed or 2) lean it back over and continue through the turn.

I've done this on the track when I made a ham fisted maneuver, WAAAAY over cooked a turn (think hitting neutral by mistake or some such thing). I am now going waaaaaay faster than I needed to be to negotiate the turn. Stand the bike up, brake very hard, lean it back down and continue. No problem.

Same applies on the street for numerous reasons. If you can't or won't do this, you shouldn't be riding on the street. I consider this basic motorcycle skills, to properly control the bike and be a safe rider, in control at all times.

Barry
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Old 12-12-2012, 11:31 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry View Post
Wrong. This is a VERY good skill to have. If you can't stop leaned over within a needed distance, the ONLY way to do so is stand the bike up, get hard on the binders and 1) stop if needed or 2) lean it back over and continue through the turn.

I've done this on the track when I made a ham fisted maneuver, WAAAAY over cooked a turn (think hitting neutral by mistake or some such thing). I am now going waaaaaay faster than I needed to be to negotiate the turn. Stand the bike up, brake very hard, lean it back down and continue. No problem.

Same applies on the street for numerous reasons. If you can't or won't do this, you shouldn't be riding on the street. I consider this basic motorcycle skills, to properly control the bike and be a safe rider, in control at all times.

Barry
I am not talking about the track, talking more like a 2 line road. You have the width of a car and no option to stand the bike up or else you go in the dirt or on coming traffic. If you were taught to stand the bike straight up to break..... then well, your screwed.

The track is much wider and has more run off. Plus you are closer to the limit on the track on traction due to the nature of it.
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Old 12-12-2012, 11:33 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by ParaMud View Post
I am not talking about the track, talking more like a 2 line road. You have the width of a car and no option to stand the bike up or else you go in the dirt or on coming traffic. If you were taught to stand the bike straight up to break..... then well, your screwed.

The track is much wider and has more run off. Plus you are closer to the limit on the track on traction due to the nature of it.
That was an example picked at random. Sorry.... I stand by my assertion that WITHIN A NORMAL TRAFFIC LANE, the average rider needs to be able to stand any bike up for maximum braking to 1) STOP or 2) continue safely through the turn.

PERIOD. End of story.

Barry
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Old 12-12-2012, 11:47 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry View Post
That was an example picked at random. Sorry.... I stand by my assertion that WITHIN A NORMAL TRAFFIC LANE, the average rider needs to be able to stand any bike up for maximum braking to 1) STOP or 2) continue safely through the turn.

PERIOD. End of story.

Barry

You think the average rider is at the limit of their traction during the turn and can't brake and turn?

Standing up shouldnt even be considered the option since that almost guarantees a crash.

Braking won't automatically throw you on the ground.
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Old 12-12-2012, 11:49 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ParaMud View Post
You think the average rider is at the limit of their traction during the turn and can't brake and turn?
No. But you may find yourself there if you cook a turn. It HAS happened...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ParaMud View Post
Standing up shouldnt even be considered the option since that almost guarantees a crash.
No, it does not. It allows for MAXIMUM braking, if that is what is needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ParaMud View Post
Braking won't automatically throw you on the ground.
I agree with this statement.


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Old 12-12-2012, 12:53 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry View Post
Wrong. This is a VERY good skill to have. If you can't stop leaned over within a needed distance, the ONLY way to do so is stand the bike up, get hard on the binders and 1) stop if needed or 2) lean it back over and continue through the turn.
stop while leaned over ? impossible, as soon as you come to a stop you WILL be horizontal

brake while leaned over, no problem, no need to "stand the bike" first. if you do, you could possibly not have enuf stopping distance before going straight off the road

better to brake and as you slow lessen you lean angle continue thru the curve till your stood up at a stop


Im' not sure what the issue is ?
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Old 12-12-2012, 12:55 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry View Post
No. But you may find yourself there if you cook a turn. It HAS happened...



No, it does not. It allows for MAXIMUM braking, if that is what is needed.



I agree with this statement.


Barry
does not allow for maximum braking if there isn't enuf room going straight
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Old 12-12-2012, 01:30 PM   #23
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5)So you’re into a right-hand corner and you must stop your bike for whatever reason. You close the throttle and sneak on the brakes lightly, balancing lean angle points against brake points. As you slow down, your radius continues to tighten. You don’t want to run off the inside of the corner, so you take away lean angle. What can you do with the brakes when you take away lean angle? Yes! Squeeze more. Stay with it and you will stop your bike mid-corner completely upright. No drama. But don’t just believe me…go prove it to yourself.

This is one of the Disalvo drills.
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Old 12-12-2012, 01:43 PM   #24
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You have a traction budget. If you are at 100% of available corner traction then you are screwed. If you are at 75% you can add 20% braking, as the bike slows you stand up, and your corner traction percent goes to 0 as the braking traction percent goes to near 100% and you successfully stop. Then can happen in much less feet than you might think.

Rod
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Old 12-12-2012, 03:19 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ParaMud View Post
I posted the rear brake in an emergency thread and was remembering back to my MSF days.
In MSF we did a exercise where, in the middle of a turn, you have to stand the bike up to brake.

Well that is almost never an option in real life. If you stand the bike up in a turn, you will either go slamming into the side wall of a canyon, or into oncoming traffic.

Why is the class teaching this?

Saying the tire can only do one thing at a time, turning or braking. That is completely false. Most of the time the tire is not even close to it's braking loose point. As long as you apply the brakes smoothly, even at the apex of a turn to brake for an oncoming car rock in the road.

I think by teaching this, they are teaching us bad habits.
There are tons of people doing this on youtube videos.

Your opinion?
MSF TEACHES that there is more than one way to do this. Increasing braking force as you straighten being the other. They TEACH this and show it in class, they simply don't have students practice it during the basic course - because at the skill development level of many students it may not be safe to do so.
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Old 12-12-2012, 07:15 PM   #26
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Some of the posters in this thread lack reading comprehension or riding comprehension, or both.

My vote is BOTH !

Carry on.

Barry
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Old 12-12-2012, 08:29 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry View Post
That was an example picked at random. Sorry.... I stand by my assertion that WITHIN A NORMAL TRAFFIC LANE, the average rider needs to be able to stand any bike up for maximum braking to 1) STOP or 2) continue safely through the turn.

PERIOD. End of story.

Barry
No not end of story. With all due respect what you say is not always going to be correct.
Have you ever ridden a bike before?
First off, no shit your gonna be straight not leaning to far to the side when your stopped. Other than Leaning on a foot which I don't count. If you cannot stop at this trun without crashing then how would handle it? Just go at it at the speed limit the at the last second throw the bike up and slam on the brakes? No. You ease on the brakes like every other situation. And if you cant brake while cornering then you shouldn't be on a bike.

What would you do here?
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Old 12-12-2012, 08:48 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry View Post
Some of the posters in this thread lack reading comprehension or riding comprehension, or both.

My vote is BOTH !

Carry on.

Barry
So you don't trail brake on the track? It is the same thing, just keeping the traction under 100 percent usage. Lean the bike over a bit, and take a little brake off. All up to the apex. The only difference is on the street you are not using 90% lean traction just to turn at the apex. You are using like 40% and you have 50% left that you can brake with.
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Old 12-12-2012, 09:37 PM   #29
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You can also use the full width of the lane.
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:16 PM   #30
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You can also use the full width of the lane.
Yes, yes you can?
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