Help - Valve specs and temperature - Page 2

folknride · 12-11-2012, 09:10 PM

Harley dealer had every size I needed - 36 bucks for 8. Harley parts in my KTM - oh the humanity

rotarygirder · 12-11-2012, 09:20 PM

I'm in the middle of my valve job right now. I tried to call a Harley dealer the other day to get individual shims and their parts department convinced me that valve shims did not exist, and I had to be thinking of valve guides.

After that conversation I went ahead and bought the Hot Cams shim set. All of the ones I will need measured within .015mm of their spec'd size, most were less than .005mm off. Not bad for $60, especially considering their size divisions are .05mm and now I have enough of these things to take care of both of my KTMs.

kamanya · 12-12-2012, 05:40 AM

The Harley guy last time I went in the there said, "you working on a KTM aren't you?"

"Yep, how'd you know?"

"No V-Rod guys here do their own valves, you KTM chaps are the only ones who ever buy them over the counter."

RedRupert · 12-12-2012, 07:09 AM

Set the valves on the loose side. Get the shims spot-on with the aid of emery cloth:

folknride · 12-12-2012, 08:01 AM

The Harley shims measure pretty true - just one of the eight is about .01mm thin - so should be good - still within spec.
On another note, how much carbon deposit are folks seeing on the back of the valves? I've got some uneven (lumpy?) carbon on mine - not a ton but it's there. Everything else is clean after 30,000 km - plugs have normal deposit

ElRod · 12-12-2012, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kamanya

The Harley guy last time I went in the there said, "you working on a KTM aren't you?"

"Yep, how'd you know?"

"No V-Rod guys here do their own valves, you KTM chaps are the only ones who ever buy them over the counter."

That's too funny......nearly word for word here at an H-D shop in Texas when I did my clearances last summer.

uraberg · 12-12-2012, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gozirra

68 vs 41 degree fahrenheit, i think he listed celsius.

Indeed. 15 degrees.

EatinDirt · 12-12-2012, 03:18 PM

Roll that baby into the cabin where its nice n toasty your wife won't mind.

Zuber · 12-13-2012, 11:43 PM

Yeah, do some extra work to get them all on the loose end of the range. It'll run better. 30k is a good time to do this because they don't change much from here on out.

Honing them with sandpaper is only good for 0.001" (0.025 mm). You must start with 100 grit, then 200, 320, 500 and you may get only a small change.

For temp changes aluminum head will change more than the steel valve stem. At cold temps the clearance will be smaller, the alum shrinks more and pulls the cams closer to the valve seat. But, when the bike is running, the parts don't have the same temp. The alum head will only get to 200 deg F, but the valves may go to 300 F for the intake and sometimes 1200 F for the exhaust. This will close the clearances, much more for the exhaust. That's why it has more clearance to start with.

Humm, Kali. Doesn't suck much right now.

markjenn · 12-14-2012, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuber

Yeah, do some extra work to get them all on the loose end of the range. It'll run better.

"Better" depends on what you're after. Wider valve clearances result in an engine with less valve lift and softer cam timing. This will tend to move the torque curve slightly lower in the rev range, but reduce high-end horsepower.

- Mark

folknride · 12-14-2012, 09:00 AM

Thanks for the advice guys. My fourth valve check/adjustment - you'd think I'd get faster

.
With Harley shims I was able to set all the valves - intake at 0.13 - 0.14 and exhaust 0.27 - 0.28 - just below the loose end of spec.
I go slow so I don't do anything

so the job, with oil change and coolant flush (replace with Engine Ice) and a few little tweaks like some new Doubletake mirrors spanned three days. When I read that folks do this in 4 hours, I think they must have different plastics than me - and don't get me started on throttle body removal and replacement. Don't get me wrong - I love my bike and enjoy my efforts at wrenching - but couldn't they have made some of this stuff easier to get at!

Bike started right up and runs great - California here we come.

Douf · 12-14-2012, 12:20 PM

Depending on the actual materials and the geometry of the valve train, if you do the math it looks as though the temperature difference could have made a few tenths of a thou difference, which - based on the actual clearance tolerance range - is possibly more than insignificant.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/li...ents-d_95.html

It's a pity you didn't ask about the Engine Ice too

Douf

Zuber · 12-17-2012, 07:57 PM

Markjenn is right. For most people, starting easier, idling easier, better throttle response, more mid-range is better running. Most won't notice a 'little off the top' to get this.

Black Hills · 12-19-2012, 07:18 AM

when looking for shims talk to the guys in the shop, not the parts counter. Locally the Honda/KTM dealer just trades me what I have for what I need (if he has them). the local independant shop charges me $5/ea. and I keep the old ones..

keener · 12-19-2012, 01:59 PM

Record the clearances and changes you made.

Dont change the clearances significantly, you might get some surprises.

12-11-2012, 09:10 PM	#16
folknride ^OP Old Adventurer Joined: Sep 2008 Location: Alberta, Canada Oddometer: 458	Harley dealer had every size I needed - 36 bucks for 8. Harley parts in my KTM - oh the humanity __________________ Warped by the rain, driven by the snow I'm drunk and dirty, but don't ya' know I'm still Willin'

12-12-2012, 05:40 AM	#18
kamanya Andrew to most Joined: Jun 2004 Location: Southern Tip of Africa Oddometer: 1,112	The Harley guy last time I went in the there said, "you working on a KTM aren't you?" "Yep, how'd you know?" "No V-Rod guys here do their own valves, you KTM chaps are the only ones who ever buy them over the counter." __________________ I often wonder where that road goes? And that, has usually made all the difference. Appologies to Mr Frost

12-12-2012, 07:09 AM	#19
RedRupert Brit in the Soviet Union Joined: Jun 2006 Location: Riga, Latvia / Bergerac, France / Colchester, UK Oddometer: 495	Set the valves on the loose side. Get the shims spot-on with the aid of emery cloth: __________________ KTM 950 Adventure (2004) Honda 650 Dominator (1988) Kawasaki KLR 650 (1988) Yamaha RD 350 LC (1984)

12-12-2012, 08:01 AM	#20
folknride ^OP Old Adventurer Joined: Sep 2008 Location: Alberta, Canada Oddometer: 458	The Harley shims measure pretty true - just one of the eight is about .01mm thin - so should be good - still within spec. On another note, how much carbon deposit are folks seeing on the back of the valves? I've got some uneven (lumpy?) carbon on mine - not a ton but it's there. Everything else is clean after 30,000 km - plugs have normal deposit __________________ Warped by the rain, driven by the snow I'm drunk and dirty, but don't ya' know I'm still Willin'

12-13-2012, 11:43 PM	#24
Zuber Zoob Joined: Sep 2004 Location: Main Street, Shedd, Oregon Oddometer: 988	Yeah, do some extra work to get them all on the loose end of the range. It'll run better. 30k is a good time to do this because they don't change much from here on out. Honing them with sandpaper is only good for 0.001" (0.025 mm). You must start with 100 grit, then 200, 320, 500 and you may get only a small change. For temp changes aluminum head will change more than the steel valve stem. At cold temps the clearance will be smaller, the alum shrinks more and pulls the cams closer to the valve seat. But, when the bike is running, the parts don't have the same temp. The alum head will only get to 200 deg F, but the valves may go to 300 F for the intake and sometimes 1200 F for the exhaust. This will close the clearances, much more for the exhaust. That's why it has more clearance to start with. Humm, Kali. Doesn't suck much right now. __________________ "Dad, can I get a motorcycle when I grow up?" "Son, you can't do both"

12-11-2012, 09:20 PM	#17
rotarygirder Adventurer Joined: Jun 2012 Oddometer: 18	I'm in the middle of my valve job right now. I tried to call a Harley dealer the other day to get individual shims and their parts department convinced me that valve shims did not exist, and I had to be thinking of valve guides. After that conversation I went ahead and bought the Hot Cams shim set. All of the ones I will need measured within .015mm of their spec'd size, most were less than .005mm off. Not bad for $60, especially considering their size divisions are .05mm and now I have enough of these things to take care of both of my KTMs.

12-12-2012, 03:18 PM	#23
EatinDirt WannaB Thumpin Joined: Aug 2010 Location: The Desert Oddometer: 15	Roll that baby into the cabin where its nice n toasty your wife won't mind.

12-14-2012, 09:00 AM	#26
folknride ^OP Old Adventurer Joined: Sep 2008 Location: Alberta, Canada Oddometer: 458	All done Thanks for the advice guys. My fourth valve check/adjustment - you'd think I'd get faster . With Harley shims I was able to set all the valves - intake at 0.13 - 0.14 and exhaust 0.27 - 0.28 - just below the loose end of spec. I go slow so I don't do anything so the job, with oil change and coolant flush (replace with Engine Ice) and a few little tweaks like some new Doubletake mirrors spanned three days. When I read that folks do this in 4 hours, I think they must have different plastics than me - and don't get me started on throttle body removal and replacement. Don't get me wrong - I love my bike and enjoy my efforts at wrenching - but couldn't they have made some of this stuff easier to get at! Bike started right up and runs great - California here we come. __________________ Warped by the rain, driven by the snow I'm drunk and dirty, but don't ya' know I'm still Willin'

12-14-2012, 12:20 PM	#27
Douf Limey Bitch Joined: Feb 2006 Location: Close to Cumming (GA that is) Oddometer: 653	Depending on the actual materials and the geometry of the valve train, if you do the math it looks as though the temperature difference could have made a few tenths of a thou difference, which - based on the actual clearance tolerance range - is possibly more than insignificant. http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/li...ents-d_95.html It's a pity you didn't ask about the Engine Ice too Douf __________________ Two Meals - True Terror (An Alaskan Ironbutt Odyssey): Liking Biking 4 Corners of South Africa - via the internet.

12-17-2012, 07:57 PM	#28
Zuber Zoob Joined: Sep 2004 Location: Main Street, Shedd, Oregon Oddometer: 988	Markjenn is right. For most people, starting easier, idling easier, better throttle response, more mid-range is better running. Most won't notice a 'little off the top' to get this. __________________ "Dad, can I get a motorcycle when I grow up?" "Son, you can't do both"

12-19-2012, 07:18 AM	#29
Black Hills Gnarly Adventurer Joined: Apr 2011 Location: Western South Dakota Oddometer: 329	when looking for shims talk to the guys in the shop, not the parts counter. Locally the Honda/KTM dealer just trades me what I have for what I need (if he has them). the local independant shop charges me $5/ea. and I keep the old ones..

12-19-2012, 01:59 PM	#30
keener Speed changes you. Joined: Feb 2010 Location: Toronto, Canada Oddometer: 521	Record the clearances and changes you made. Dont change the clearances significantly, you might get some surprises. __________________ 04 ADV 950

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