Braking in a Turn

[Jan from Finland]

Originally Posted by ragtoplvr

You have a traction budget. If you are at 100% of available corner traction then you are screwed. If you are at 75% you can add 20% braking, as the bike slows you stand up, and your corner traction percent goes to 0 as the braking traction percent goes to near 100% and you successfully stop. Then can happen in much less feet than you might think.

Except with modern tyres your budget is not a circle, as it used to be decades ago. Nowadays you may still have 20% left for breaking even if you have already used close to 100% for cornering.

An other issue with this whole thread is that "standing up your bike" will happen regardless of riders action. Most bikes have a geometry which will stand up. Very few bikes are capable of braking without standing up. Only is slippery conditions you have to stand the bike up before braking.

In the end all depeneds on the conditions, bike and rider skills. It may be smart to teach new riders not to brake in a curve but it is not the whole truth.

[Reverend12]

Keep the green ones off the front brake while leaned over. Teaches them to use Both brakes and square the handlebars, at the same time downshifting so they are ready to get out of the way. The exercise is viable, but I hate it, most crashes happen here in an MSF class because they won't square the bars before braking..

[dbuzz]

Why are people insisting on looking at how to brake in a corner ... I always am looking for when I can hit the gas

[manfromthestix]

Originally Posted by ParaMud

You think the average rider is at the limit of their traction during the turn and can't brake and turn?

Standing up shouldnt even be considered the option since that almost guarantees a crash.

Braking won't automatically throw you on the ground.

An other issue with this whole thread is that "standing up your bike" will happen regardless of riders action. Most bikes have a geometry which will stand up. Very few bikes are capable of braking without standing up. Only is slippery conditions you have to stand the bike up before braking.




You can play with the physics of this at low speed, ya know, just to see what happens for yourself when you apply the rear brake. The bike will naturally try to go toward the vertical when just the REAR brake is applied during a turn.

Don't believe it? While in a low-speed turn, drag the rear a little and you can feel the bike lift away from the turn (i.e. if turning hard left the bike will try to lift toward the right, toward the vertical). I'm no physicist, but I've been riding for 50 years and it works on all kinds of bikes regardless the type of suspension, speed, road surface, etc. Just don't lock the brake. In a low speed maneuver if you slip the clutch and apply a bit of throttle (so you don't stall the engine - do that and you'll fall like a rock ) while dragging a little rear brake (NO front brake ) the bike will be very stable even in a full-lock low speed turn. Using this technique I can turn even my RT or GS in a circle at full steering lock within the width of two standard parking spaces.

The same physics are in action at higher speeds, but with more variables thrown in for excitement (inertia of the wheels, traction/tire flex, ass-pucker syndrome (the "third hand" ), frame flex, suspension, rider position (affects the center of gravity), etc. At speed you can even throw in some significant front braking to help. This is why I will never own a bike with linked brakes; I want to control each one individually and not have some computer doing it for me and quite likely fucking it up.

I learned this technique years ago while racing motocross/enduros and competing in trials, it really works in low-traction settings and works even better on asphalt. Practice, practice, practice!

Doug

[H96669]

Originally Posted by dbuzz

Why are people insisting on looking at how to brake in a corner ... I always am looking for when I can hit the gas

Deer...mountain goats...the odd bear...rather large rocks and my last a police car pulling a 3 point just outside a curve to go catch a speeding semi. Looks like braking in that curve, besides avoiding the idiot cop may also have saved me an award. Good thing the semi was first....!

If that cop was idiotic enough to pull that dangerous manoeuver, I don't think I could have discussed with him per my usual wink wink....!

[outlaws justice]

Gradually applying the brakes while leaned over in a turn can actually tighten the turn and does not have to stand the bike up.

[ShaftEd]

Originally Posted by EggChaser

Of course if you get on a Beemer with any of the forms of telelever suspension on the front end then there is much less dive during braking, which in turn gives a different feel when braking leant over. Which could mean if you regularly ride that type of system, take more care when you next get on a bike with standard front suspension.

I can personally attest to the this! DAMHIK

[markk53]

One does NOT have to stand the bike up and not get back into the turn. I'm thinking almost every time we ride there is at least one time where I will stand the bike up briefly to do a bit of harder braking than might be allowed in full lean, then lean back in.

It rarely is fully upright, but it is enough to allow the braking I need (quick action based on knowledge from experience, not drawn out thought process mid corner). That is the key - knowing WHAT to do and HOW LONG OR FAR to do it. When I "sit up" in a corner I don't have to remain as such. It might be a quick action to avoid somthing in the road or to take off a bit of speed because of being a bit fast in the corner... any of a variety of reasons.

Am I at a dangerous point? Rarely. It is just what I have to do to keep the margin of safety. Have I ever been at that dangerous point? Sure, but kept it on the road (in most cases - on the dual sport it may be possible to go off a bit and keep it upright). Of course I'm not "racing" on the road and that helps make it far less danger than being at the edge.

Just my thoughts and ways. If it helps, great. If you don't agree, fine. It just works for me.

[Jim Moore]

Originally Posted by markk53

One does NOT have to stand the bike up and not get back into the turn. I'm thinking almost every time we ride there is at least one time where I will stand the bike up briefly to do a bit of harder braking than might be allowed in full lean, then lean back in.

So, you're screwing up your entry speed so bad that halfway through the turn you have to srtaighten up and use the brakes, then tip back into the turn. That's interesting. I can't even conceive of that.

[Barry]

Originally Posted by Jim Moore

So, you're screwing up your entry speed so bad that halfway through the turn you have to srtaighten up and use the brakes, then tip back into the turn. That's interesting. I can't even conceive of that.

In addition, for items blocking the road, debris, fluids, etc. you may have to do just that. Why this is lost on people boggles my mind.

There is idiocy being shared in this thread. This thread has FAIL all in it. I am simply amazed. Maybe it's the medium, and we are not sharing information clearly. Or maybe some of the people posting really do not get it as much as their posts suggest they do not.

WOW...

Barry

[Pantah]

Originally Posted by manfromthestix

An other issue with this whole thread is that "standing up your bike" will happen regardless of riders action. Most bikes have a geometry which will stand up. Very few bikes are capable of braking without standing up.

Doug

I guess you've never ridden a Yamaha R6 or Honda CBR600RR.

[Capt Crash]

Originally Posted by Jan from Finland

Except with modern tyres your budget is not a circle, as it used to be decades ago. Nowadays you may still have 20% left for breaking even if you have already used close to 100% for cornering.

That's the kinda math the US government uses. 100% is 100%. I think you simply mean that current tech tires allow us to carry greater speed through better utilization of available traction.

Boy, that sounded all smarter than I intended.

[Wraith Rider]

Originally Posted by markk53

One does NOT have to stand the bike up and not get back into the turn. I'm thinking almost every time we ride there is at least one time where I will stand the bike up briefly to do a bit of harder braking than might be allowed in full lean, then lean back in.
[...]
Am I at a dangerous point? Rarely. It is just what I have to do to keep the margin of safety.

If you're not at a dangerous point, you are not leaned over that far that you can't brake. So why do you stand it up at all instead of braking leaned over?

[ragtoplvr]

If you are leaned over until hard parts are dragging, and have to panic stop you can not even roll off the throttle until you stand it up a bit. THEN and only then can you apply some brake, hopefully Before you hit something. This is why you should save race cornering for the racetrack. Modern tires usually have good enough traction that while things are draggin you are not using all the tire traction. You would have some left to brake with BUT that will cost you ground clearance and you will lever a tire off, and lowside so you can not use it..There may be exceptions. Beemers are a bit better because of the suspension design but they still squat a bit on braking, so do not trust it.

Rod

[crofrog]

Originally Posted by Capt Crash

That's the kinda math the US government uses. 100% is 100%. I think you simply mean that current tech tires allow us to carry greater speed through better utilization of available traction.

Boy, that sounded all smarter than I intended.

Great tires even at the limits of lean aka hard parts dragging, aren't fully utilized and have some to offer for both braking or accelerating.