ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Riding > The perfect line and other riding myths
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 12-13-2012, 05:28 PM   #31
Jan from Finland
Registered
 
Joined: May 2005
Oddometer: 538
Quote:
Originally Posted by ragtoplvr View Post
You have a traction budget. If you are at 100% of available corner traction then you are screwed. If you are at 75% you can add 20% braking, as the bike slows you stand up, and your corner traction percent goes to 0 as the braking traction percent goes to near 100% and you successfully stop. Then can happen in much less feet than you might think.
Except with modern tyres your budget is not a circle, as it used to be decades ago. Nowadays you may still have 20% left for breaking even if you have already used close to 100% for cornering.

An other issue with this whole thread is that "standing up your bike" will happen regardless of riders action. Most bikes have a geometry which will stand up. Very few bikes are capable of braking without standing up. Only is slippery conditions you have to stand the bike up before braking.

In the end all depeneds on the conditions, bike and rider skills. It may be smart to teach new riders not to brake in a curve but it is not the whole truth.
__________________
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you are ever attacked by lion, your best defense is to shove your arm down
their throat, grabbing the back of their tongue and hope help arrives quickly.
- Pro Travel Tip by Overland Journal
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jan from Finland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2012, 08:47 PM   #32
Reverend12
Well there it is..
 
Reverend12's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2008
Location: Maylene, Alabami
Oddometer: 1,410
Keep the green ones off the front brake while leaned over. Teaches them to use Both brakes and square the handlebars, at the same time downshifting so they are ready to get out of the way. The exercise is viable, but I hate it, most crashes happen here in an MSF class because they won't square the bars before braking..
Reverend12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2012, 03:06 AM   #33
dbuzz
Citizen of the world
 
Joined: Jun 2009
Location: On my bike
Oddometer: 1,243
Why are people insisting on looking at how to brake in a corner ... I always am looking for when I can hit the gas
dbuzz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2012, 04:38 AM   #34
manfromthestix
Lost in Space
 
manfromthestix's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2004
Location: Lexington, Virginia
Oddometer: 2,091
Quote:
Originally Posted by ParaMud View Post
You think the average rider is at the limit of their traction during the turn and can't brake and turn?

Standing up shouldnt even be considered the option since that almost guarantees a crash.

Braking won't automatically throw you on the ground.
An other issue with this whole thread is that "standing up your bike" will happen regardless of riders action. Most bikes have a geometry which will stand up. Very few bikes are capable of braking without standing up. Only is slippery conditions you have to stand the bike up before braking.




You can play with the physics of this at low speed, ya know, just to see what happens for yourself when you apply the rear brake. The bike will naturally try to go toward the vertical when just the REAR brake is applied during a turn.

Don't believe it? While in a low-speed turn, drag the rear a little and you can feel the bike lift away from the turn (i.e. if turning hard left the bike will try to lift toward the right, toward the vertical). I'm no physicist, but I've been riding for 50 years and it works on all kinds of bikes regardless the type of suspension, speed, road surface, etc. Just don't lock the brake. In a low speed maneuver if you slip the clutch and apply a bit of throttle (so you don't stall the engine - do that and you'll fall like a rock ) while dragging a little rear brake (NO front brake ) the bike will be very stable even in a full-lock low speed turn. Using this technique I can turn even my RT or GS in a circle at full steering lock within the width of two standard parking spaces.

The same physics are in action at higher speeds, but with more variables thrown in for excitement (inertia of the wheels, traction/tire flex, ass-pucker syndrome (the "third hand" ), frame flex, suspension, rider position (affects the center of gravity), etc. At speed you can even throw in some significant front braking to help. This is why I will never own a bike with linked brakes; I want to control each one individually and not have some computer doing it for me and quite likely fucking it up.

I learned this technique years ago while racing motocross/enduros and competing in trials, it really works in low-traction settings and works even better on asphalt. Practice, practice, practice!

Doug
__________________
"If it doesn't blow smoke and make noise, it isn't a sport!" - radio ad for shop in Bozeman, MT
manfromthestix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2012, 10:04 AM   #35
H96669
A proud pragmatist.
 
H96669's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2009
Location: Hiding off Hwy 6, B.C.
Oddometer: 4,293
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbuzz View Post
Why are people insisting on looking at how to brake in a corner ... I always am looking for when I can hit the gas
Deer...mountain goats...the odd bear...rather large rocks and my last a police car pulling a 3 point just outside a curve to go catch a speeding semi. Looks like braking in that curve, besides avoiding the idiot cop may also have saved me an award. Good thing the semi was first....!

If that cop was idiotic enough to pull that dangerous manoeuver, I don't think I could have discussed with him per my usual wink wink....!
__________________
Have tools, will travel!
H96669 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2012, 10:18 AM   #36
outlaws justice
Studly Adventurer
 
outlaws justice's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: Watertown NY
Oddometer: 970
Gradually applying the brakes while leaned over in a turn can actually tighten the turn and does not have to stand the bike up.
__________________
David
2005 KTM950 Adventure, 2007 BMW K1200GT, 2005 Yamaha Vmax, 2005 Suzuki SV650S, 1991 Honda VFR750, 2004 Honda CRF250X, 2000 Buell Blast................
outlaws justice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2012, 03:30 PM   #37
ShaftEd
Beastly Adventurer
 
ShaftEd's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2001
Location: San Diego, CA USA
Oddometer: 3,179
Quote:
Originally Posted by EggChaser View Post
Of course if you get on a Beemer with any of the forms of telelever suspension on the front end then there is much less dive during braking, which in turn gives a different feel when braking leant over. Which could mean if you regularly ride that type of system, take more care when you next get on a bike with standard front suspension.
I can personally attest to the this! DAMHIK
ShaftEd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2012, 05:27 AM   #38
markk53
jack of all trades...
 
markk53's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2007
Location: Delaware Ohio
Oddometer: 7,488
One does NOT have to stand the bike up and not get back into the turn. I'm thinking almost every time we ride there is at least one time where I will stand the bike up briefly to do a bit of harder braking than might be allowed in full lean, then lean back in.

It rarely is fully upright, but it is enough to allow the braking I need (quick action based on knowledge from experience, not drawn out thought process mid corner). That is the key - knowing WHAT to do and HOW LONG OR FAR to do it. When I "sit up" in a corner I don't have to remain as such. It might be a quick action to avoid somthing in the road or to take off a bit of speed because of being a bit fast in the corner... any of a variety of reasons.

Am I at a dangerous point? Rarely. It is just what I have to do to keep the margin of safety. Have I ever been at that dangerous point? Sure, but kept it on the road (in most cases - on the dual sport it may be possible to go off a bit and keep it upright). Of course I'm not "racing" on the road and that helps make it far less danger than being at the edge.

Just my thoughts and ways. If it helps, great. If you don't agree, fine. It just works for me.
__________________
Ever get lost? You know, that good kind of lost - come to a dirt road intersection and you have no idea where you are or which way to turn? I like when that happens!

Mark - klx678
95 KLX650C w/Vulcan piston bigbore, Now an 09 KLX250S, selling my 90 Zephyr 550
markk53 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2012, 07:08 AM   #39
Jim Moore
Beastly Adventurer
 
Jim Moore's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2001
Location: Jax, FL
Oddometer: 12,364
Quote:
Originally Posted by markk53 View Post
One does NOT have to stand the bike up and not get back into the turn. I'm thinking almost every time we ride there is at least one time where I will stand the bike up briefly to do a bit of harder braking than might be allowed in full lean, then lean back in.
So, you're screwing up your entry speed so bad that halfway through the turn you have to srtaighten up and use the brakes, then tip back into the turn. That's interesting. I can't even conceive of that.
__________________
Jim Moore
Jax, FL

Pay the lady, PirateJohn, you thieving piece of garbage.
http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=949341
Jim Moore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2012, 08:05 AM   #40
Barry
Just Beastly
 
Barry's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2002
Location: Fredericksburg, Va.
Oddometer: 7,049
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Moore View Post
So, you're screwing up your entry speed so bad that halfway through the turn you have to srtaighten up and use the brakes, then tip back into the turn. That's interesting. I can't even conceive of that.
In addition, for items blocking the road, debris, fluids, etc. you may have to do just that. Why this is lost on people boggles my mind.

There is idiocy being shared in this thread. This thread has FAIL all in it. I am simply amazed. Maybe it's the medium, and we are not sharing information clearly. Or maybe some of the people posting really do not get it as much as their posts suggest they do not.

WOW...

Barry
__________________
Tail of the Dragon at Deal's Gap... Avoid it now, do a trackday.

Do not do business with Myrtle West Cycle... Not a reputable vendor by a long shot.
Barry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2012, 08:19 AM   #41
Pantah
Red Sox Nation
 
Pantah's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2004
Location: India Wharf
Oddometer: 9,945
Quote:
Originally Posted by manfromthestix View Post
An other issue with this whole thread is that "standing up your bike" will happen regardless of riders action. Most bikes have a geometry which will stand up. Very few bikes are capable of braking without standing up.

Doug
I guess you've never ridden a Yamaha R6 or Honda CBR600RR.

__________________
Straight ahead and faster -Bo Weaver 1970
"There I was..." -Griffin Niner Three Hotel
"One day closer to a parade..." Jonny Gomes, spring training 2013
Pantah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2012, 10:28 AM   #42
Capt Crash
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Capt Crash's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2009
Location: SW I...DOH! NO!
Oddometer: 218
Puke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan from Finland View Post
Except with modern tyres your budget is not a circle, as it used to be decades ago. Nowadays you may still have 20% left for breaking even if you have already used close to 100% for cornering.
That's the kinda math the US government uses. 100% is 100%. I think you simply mean that current tech tires allow us to carry greater speed through better utilization of available traction.

Boy, that sounded all smarter than I intended.
__________________
Yeah, that Capt Crash http://www.HowitDoneCrash.com
Author of "Life, Motorcycles and..." & "The Elemental Motorcyclist"
Any Bike is Better Than No Bike.
Capt Crash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2012, 11:04 AM   #43
Wraith Rider
Beastly Adventurer
 
Wraith Rider's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2012
Location: Germany
Oddometer: 1,003
Quote:
Originally Posted by markk53 View Post
One does NOT have to stand the bike up and not get back into the turn. I'm thinking almost every time we ride there is at least one time where I will stand the bike up briefly to do a bit of harder braking than might be allowed in full lean, then lean back in.
[...]
Am I at a dangerous point? Rarely. It is just what I have to do to keep the margin of safety.
If you're not at a dangerous point, you are not leaned over that far that you can't brake. So why do you stand it up at all instead of braking leaned over?
__________________
"Why not stay in disguise all the time? You know, look like everyone else."
"Because we shouldn't have to."
Wraith Rider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2012, 11:50 AM   #44
ragtoplvr
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Oct 2007
Location: S. W. Mssouri
Oddometer: 5,502
If you are leaned over until hard parts are dragging, and have to panic stop you can not even roll off the throttle until you stand it up a bit. THEN and only then can you apply some brake, hopefully Before you hit something. This is why you should save race cornering for the racetrack. Modern tires usually have good enough traction that while things are draggin you are not using all the tire traction. You would have some left to brake with BUT that will cost you ground clearance and you will lever a tire off, and lowside so you can not use it..There may be exceptions. Beemers are a bit better because of the suspension design but they still squat a bit on braking, so do not trust it.

Rod
ragtoplvr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2012, 01:15 PM   #45
crofrog
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Sep 2007
Location: Annapolis Maryland
Oddometer: 1,455
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Crash View Post
That's the kinda math the US government uses. 100% is 100%. I think you simply mean that current tech tires allow us to carry greater speed through better utilization of available traction.

Boy, that sounded all smarter than I intended.
Great tires even at the limits of lean aka hard parts dragging, aren't fully utilized and have some to offer for both braking or accelerating.
crofrog is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 03:04 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014