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Old 12-18-2012, 05:53 AM   #256
battman
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reading is one thing, seeing is another

http://www.lithiumracingbattery.com/gallery.html
look along the left side and click image
http://www.lithiumracingbattery.com/earthx_8_cell.jpg
this is not a bms, it is a 50 milliamp balancing card
these are not flat cells
Can load check if needed

battman screwed with this post 12-18-2012 at 05:58 AM
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Old 12-18-2012, 08:38 AM   #257
cyborg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by battman View Post
http://www.lithiumracingbattery.com/gallery.html
look along the left side and click image
http://www.lithiumracingbattery.com/earthx_8_cell.jpg
this is not a bms, it is a 50 milliamp balancing card
these are not flat cells
Can load check if needed
Good info Battman. I only had the EarthX literature to go on and what their own sales people told me, which as you have shown, is wrong/misleading. Wasn't willing to cut mine apart in the name of science. Those A123 cells must be very light. Still, having a built-in balancing charger to get that last little bit out of the cells is nice.
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Old 12-18-2012, 04:33 PM   #258
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time to do a few CCA test duplicating what Joel Wiseman did earlier in video below. 200 amp for 30sec, 10sec and 20sec cycle.

reason for duplicating values Joel used is 200amp is about what R1200GS draws cold. just as important data produced will dovetail into Joel's excellent work.

actual amp hour capacity for tested LiFePO4 battery will be part of new data generated.
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...8#post20278858



battman ... thanks for the pic's... there's several types of BMS for LiFePO4 batteries ... most common is a intelligent shunt, when selected voltage is reached for that cell. current is shunted to ground to allow rest of cells to reach full voltage. if you have any more angles, would you send them to me or post em.

Earth-X could be using both prismatic and cylindrical cells, depending on amp hour battery. note there can be substantial differences in actual CCA delivered. either due to different cells and/or cell to cell construction.

_cy_ screwed with this post 12-19-2012 at 01:29 PM
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Old 12-18-2012, 06:58 PM   #259
battman
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http://www.lithiumracingbattery.com/earth_card2.jpg
http://www.lithiumracingbattery.com/earth_card.jpg

the way i do my cranking load tests is to draw down the voltage to 9V and read the current output
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Old 12-20-2012, 11:41 AM   #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by battman View Post
http://www.lithiumracingbattery.com/earth_card2.jpg
http://www.lithiumracingbattery.com/earth_card.jpg

the way i do my cranking load tests is to draw down the voltage to 9V and read the current output
voltage drop under load may not be as important indicator as amp drop due to LiFePO4's very flat discharge curve. the instant battery no longer sustains 200amp... tests are stopped to prevent damage to battery. then fully discharge battery is immediately charged above 12.8v, then allowed to cool for balance of charge cycle to full.

main difference between my LiFePO4 tests and Joel's is the addition of actual amp hour measurements. which require special tools to measure. Joel has nicer Fluke meters than me

discharge tests are well underway for Shorai LFX21, LFX36, Earth-X ETX24, ETX36C. here ... http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...757934&page=19

_cy_ screwed with this post 12-20-2012 at 11:47 AM
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Old 12-20-2012, 07:36 PM   #261
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Using Heated Gear with LiFePO4 batteries

heated gear don't understand PB/EQ. they draw real amps. Almost all LiFePO4 battery mfg like to use amp equivalents to lead acid batteries. that may be valid for starting requirements. but heated gear don't care... they draw regular amps.

listed amp/watts for Gerbings micro wire. even if you don't have Gerbings, amp draw will be real close. amp x volt = watts

1. Jacket 6.4 amp/77watts
2. Vest 4.5 amp/54watts
3. Pants 3.6 amp/44watts
4. Gloves 2.2 amp/27watts
5. Grips 3.0 amp/36watts

let's say you've got a heated jacket, heated gloves and heated grips = 11.6amp draw

let's say your LiFePO4 battery has an actual Amp Hour capacity of 6 amp hour. this means your battery will support your heated gear for about 1/2 hour before going dead.

then let's factor in alternator output and amp draw from rest of bike. on short rides using heated gear, it's quite possible to use more amps from your battery than Alternator has a chance to replenish.

when you put your bike away for the night after that short cold ride. your 6 amp hour battery may not be fully charged.

next morning it's say 30f degrees ... you go to start your bike with a half dead battery.... fail ... one automatically blames the battery. when the fault is putting bike away with a half charged battery.

this is where LiFePO4 batteries with BIG reserve capacities shine. Lithium batteries internal resistance goes way up with battery gets cold. this means substantially less amps will be delivered. cold start procedures calls for a load to be placed on LiFePO4 battery. this heats up battery reducing internal resistance, allowing more amps to be delivered.

ahhhh... but there is a catch... heating a cold LiFePO4 battery takes amps... battery must have enough reserve capacity to heat battery up and start your motorcycle.

clear as mud... nah.. it's not that hard to understand. Adventure bikes must have some of the hardest demands on a battery. if you've got a R1200GS and you are planing on climbing the Andes mountains and camping out.

go with an AGM or if saving 10lb+ is worth the trouble... go with largest LiFePO4 motorcycle battery available.

one year old Shorai LFX36 next to new Earth-X ETX36C

_cy_ screwed with this post 12-26-2012 at 03:21 AM
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Old 12-20-2012, 09:26 PM   #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
Using Heated Gear with LiFePO4 batteries

heated gear don't understand PB/EQ. they draw real amps. Almost all LiFePO4 battery mfg like to use amp equivalents to lead acid batteries. that may be valid for starting requirements. but heated gear don't care... they draw regular amps.

listed amp/watts for Gerbings micro wire. even if you don't have Gerbings, amp draw will be real close. amp x volt = watts

1. Jacket 6.4 amp/77watts
2. Vest 4.5 amp/54watts
3. Pants 3.6 amp/44watts
4. Gloves 2.2 amp/27watts
5. Grips 3.0 amp/36watts

let's say you've got a heated jacket, heated gloves and heated grips = 11.6amp draw

let's say your LiFePO4 battery has an actual Amp Hour capacity of 6 amp hour. this means your battery will support your heated gear for about 1/2 hour before going dead.

then let's factor in alternator output and amp draw from rest of bike. on short rides using heated gear, it's quite possible to use more amps from your battery than Alternator has a chance to replenish.

when you put your bike away for the night after that short cold ride. your 6 amp hour battery may not be fully charged.

next morning it's say 30f degrees ... you go to start your bike with a half dead battery.... fail ... one automatically blames the battery. when the fault is putting bike away with a half charged battery.

this is where LiFePO4 batteries with BIG reserve capacities shine. Lithium batteries internal resistance goes way up with battery gets cold. this means substantially less amps will be delivered. cold start procedures calls for a load to be placed on LiFePO4 battery. this heats up battery reducing internal resistance, allowing more amps to be delivered.

ahhhh... but there is a catch... heating a cold LiFePO4 battery takes amps... battery must have enough reserve capacity to heat battery up and start your motorcycle.

clear as mud... nah.. it's not that hard to understand. Adventure bikes must have some of the hardest demands on a battery. if you've got a R1200GS and you are planing on climbing the Andes mountains and camping out.

go with an AGM or if saving 10lb+ is worth the trouble... go with largest LiFePO4 motorcycle battery available.

Shorai LFX36 next to Earth-X ETX36C
Amazing the EarthX battery is much smaller than the Shorai, but then the Shorai's can have a lot of airspace above the flat-packs and the case is sized more for the expected application.

As for running heated gear, GPS , heated grips etc, as long as you don't draw more than your alternator puts out, your battery will stay charged just fine. A small panel voltmeter is all you need to tell that. If it drops below 13V or so your charging system/alternator is not keeping up with the loads on the bike, and starts to draw on the battery. If you were to ride a long way in this configuration, your battery would eventually die.

I size my loads on the bike I'm riding to always leave some overhead watts so the alternator can keep up. I don't count on any kind of battery to run my heated gear directly since they will all run down quick.

Even my Husaberg FE390 dirtbike has 200Watts out and running a Gerbings heated jacket liner, heated grips, the EFI system, GPS and my 44Watt LED headlight, I have 80+ watts left over and my alternator on that bike easily keeps the Shorai in it as fully charged as it can be. I would think BMW's have even larger alternators.

My KTM 990 (~450watts) has even more power out and has no problem keeping any battery on the bike fully charged along with EFI, heated gear, HID lights, navigation, etc. even on short rides. If you are managing your loads properly, you should basically never be drawing from your battery while the engine is running.
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Old 12-21-2012, 11:43 AM   #263
_cy_
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyborg View Post
Amazing the EarthX battery is much smaller than the Shorai, but then the Shorai's can have a lot of airspace above the flat-packs and the case is sized more for the expected application.

As for running heated gear, GPS , heated grips etc, as long as you don't draw more than your alternator puts out, your battery will stay charged just fine. A small panel voltmeter is all you need to tell that. If it drops below 13V or so your charging system/alternator is not keeping up with the loads on the bike, and starts to draw on the battery. If you were to ride a long way in this configuration, your battery would eventually die.

I size my loads on the bike I'm riding to always leave some overhead watts so the alternator can keep up. I don't count on any kind of battery to run my heated gear directly since they will all run down quick.

Even my Husaberg FE390 dirtbike has 200Watts out and running a Gerbings heated jacket liner, heated grips, the EFI system, GPS and my 44Watt LED headlight, I have 80+ watts left over and my alternator on that bike easily keeps the Shorai in it as fully charged as it can be. I would think BMW's have even larger alternators.

My KTM 990 (~450watts) has even more power out and has no problem keeping any battery on the bike fully charged along with EFI, heated gear, HID lights, navigation, etc. even on short rides. If you are managing your loads properly, you should basically never be drawing from your battery while the engine is running.
keep in mind we are talking about an adventure bike ... and we all know that nothing ever goes wrong in the middle of nowhere

sure would be nice to be able to crank that heavy pig of a bike over .. and over and over .... clearing that bad load of fuel out, etc.

don't know about you, but I'd want that extra amp hour capacity to deliver that reserve cranking with me.

another factor to keep in mind is LiFePO4 batteries operate on a different voltage scale as lead acid. think in terms of pressure in a pipe... meaning charging voltage has to be higher than resting voltage of battery to push a charge into battery.

depending on charge state of your battery, 13v my not be enough to charge your LiFePO4 battery back up to full.


_cy_ screwed with this post 12-21-2012 at 11:57 AM
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Old 12-24-2012, 12:50 PM   #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
Using Heated Gear with LiFePO4 batteries
blames the battery. when the fault is putting bike away with a half charged battery.
....
clear as mud... nah.. it's not that hard to understand. Adventure bikes must have some of the hardest demands on a battery. if you've got a R1200GS and you are planing on climbing the Andes mountains and camping out.
Unless you are doing under five minute rides, and/or you have to use several amp hours worth of battery power to start the bike, your alternator will be able to recharge the battery. But I agree that the best way is too watch a volt meter and make sure you are staying above charge voltage. If you are bringing it home with a half charge you should put it on a tender, LiFe or lead acid. If you are out on a multi-day trip, no tender is needed as most likely not a short ride.

If you are climbing the Andes mountains, you are not taking short rides.
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Old 12-25-2012, 01:15 PM   #265
_cy_
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Unless you are doing under five minute rides, and/or you have to use several amp hours worth of battery power to start the bike, your alternator will be able to recharge the battery. But I agree that the best way is too watch a volt meter and make sure you are staying above charge voltage. If you are bringing it home with a half charge you should put it on a tender, LiFe or lead acid. If you are out on a multi-day trip, no tender is needed as most likely not a short ride.

If you are climbing the Andes mountains, you are not taking short rides.
good point ... but folks following mfg recommendations don't realize their actual amp hour capacity could be low as 4amp hour.

as you point out above, when things go with ideal conditions as in warm weather. things stay hunky dory... but if/when anything happens out of the ordinary. there's little to no reserve. would you want to be in the middle of no-where with your pig of an adventure bike with no kick starter and no reserve in your battery? (not me.. R80G/S has a kick starter and carries a big honking battery)

then factor in performance reductions when temps goes down. note difference temps makes in chart below


_cy_ screwed with this post 12-25-2012 at 01:21 PM
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Old 12-25-2012, 03:00 PM   #266
cyborg
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Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
keep in mind we are talking about an adventure bike ... and we all know that nothing ever goes wrong in the middle of nowhere

sure would be nice to be able to crank that heavy pig of a bike over .. and over and over .... clearing that bad load of fuel out, etc.

don't know about you, but I'd want that extra amp hour capacity to deliver that reserve cranking with me.

another factor to keep in mind is LiFePO4 batteries operate on a different voltage scale as lead acid. think in terms of pressure in a pipe... meaning charging voltage has to be higher than resting voltage of battery to push a charge into battery.

depending on charge state of your battery, 13v my not be enough to charge your LiFePO4 battery back up to full.
I was just tossing out a voltage higher than 12V as an example for a voltmeter. Actual charging minimum voltage needed depends upon the battery type as you pointed out. My running engine voltages on 2 bikes generally run 14+ V and have so far been enough even on short rides to replace the energy used up from starting.

Of course we would all want the maximum capacity battery for the unexpected. However unless EarthX, for example, is being untruthful about their AmpHour capacity within the stated environmental envelope, then it should be the equivalent of the lead/acid it replaced. If that's not the case we will find out.

In the EarthX case the 'correct' battery for my bike is the 18Ah. The 24Ah and 36aH all fit in the same "C" case as the 18aH. The 18aH is $209, the 36aH is $339. If I was going super remote, and didn't trust the battery manufacturer I would get the biggest LiFe I could (or get an AGM), but in general why spend the bucks if the proper size works at least as well as the lead/acid it replaces.

I do and have taken my adventure bikes very remote and extreme temperatures at times over the last 40+ years of riding and so far so good. Never been stranded by a bad battery yet, not even a Shorai.
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Old 12-25-2012, 04:10 PM   #267
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I was just tossing out a voltage higher than 12V as an example for a voltmeter. Actual charging minimum voltage needed depends upon the battery type as you pointed out. My running engine voltages on 2 bikes generally run 14+ V and have so far been enough even on short rides to replace the energy used up from starting.

Of course we would all want the maximum capacity battery for the unexpected. However unless EarthX, for example, is being untruthful about their AmpHour capacity within the stated environmental envelope, then it should be the equivalent of the lead/acid it replaced. If that's not the case we will find out.

In the EarthX case the 'correct' battery for my bike is the 18Ah. The 24Ah and 36aH all fit in the same "C" case as the 18aH. The 18aH is $209, the 36aH is $339. If I was going super remote, and didn't trust the battery manufacturer I would get the biggest LiFe I could (or get an AGM), but in general why spend the bucks if the proper size works at least as well as the lead/acid it replaces.

I do and have taken my adventure bikes very remote and extreme temperatures at times over the last 40+ years of riding and so far so good. Never been stranded by a bad battery yet, not even a Shorai.
see my LiFePO4 testing thread for detailed info on Earth-X actual amp hour capacities, as measured by regenerative discharge with a Powerlab8. which is one of main differences of my tests vs Joel's has no actual amp hour capacity tests.

Earth-X in tests so far, flat delivers huge cranking amps. using Joel's testing methodology of 200amps for 30sec, 10sec and 20sec. ETX24 delivered the goods!!! very impressive performance. in terms of cranking power, outperformed Shorai LFX21 by a considerable margin. note tests done at room temps so far for Earth-X. performance under real life cold conditions is what counts.

Shorai LFX36 is still the big dog ... yes Shorai LFX36 survived three complete Joel cycles (180 sec @ 200amp) discharges without missing a beat. had to stop test due to overheating Snap-on carbon pile tester. LFX36 had lots left when tests was stopped.

Earth-X36C discharge tests coming up soon.

_cy_ screwed with this post 12-25-2012 at 04:25 PM
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Old 12-29-2012, 10:30 PM   #268
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I remember somewhere further back on this thread that Joel was recommending [not] to go to a larger AWG size from the Stator to the R/R in an attempt to lessen the resistance. Can someone who possesses the knowledge please expand on this.

I have a Kaw Versys. I'm tired of burned up stators. [I'm on my 3rd in 75,000 miles]

I bought a Compufire Series style R/R and I'm pivoting on how to go forward on the install.
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Old 12-30-2012, 04:14 PM   #269
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On some other bikes folks have beefed up wiring from the R/R to the battery (not from stator to R/R)...
maybe that is what you are thinking of?

We discussed that some pages back....

On the 3-wires coming from the stator....Joel has one or more bikes in test that have a resistor added to each stator lead of about 0.1 - 0.2 ohm (IIRC), the idea being to limit the max current from the stator windings thus keeping them from getting quite as hot, and also reducing maximum output of the stator by some amount ... 25W - 50W reduction (again from memory). He did this by soldering a short length of nichrome wire into each lead ...

I don't think he's talked about the results of that experiment....
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Old 12-31-2012, 01:38 PM   #270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRWooden View Post
On some other bikes folks have beefed up wiring from the R/R to the battery (not from stator to R/R)...
maybe that is what you are thinking of?

We discussed that some pages back....

On the 3-wires coming from the stator....Joel has one or more bikes in test that have a resistor added to each stator lead of about 0.1 - 0.2 ohm (IIRC), the idea being to limit the max current from the stator windings thus keeping them from getting quite as hot, and also reducing maximum output of the stator by some amount ... 25W - 50W reduction (again from memory). He did this by soldering a short length of nichrome wire into each lead ...

I don't think he's talked about the results of that experiment....
The Compufire series R/R came w/nice 10ga pos and neg wires. I'm taking those babies right to the batt posts w/a waterproof 30amp fuse.

It's what Joel said about resistance [being a good thing] that has me nervous about the 3 AC stator wires.

The stator I had rewound from CUSTOM REWIND has 14 AWG wires coming off the windings and there is enough length to make it all the way to the R/R.

The 3 AC wires that run through the stock harness looks like they are 16 AWG, witch is one size down from the stator wires. And there is a tap on one of the phases that trips the headlight relay.

My logic says bigger, shorter, and less connections = less resistance= better.

Obviously Joel know this stuff better than me, but I'm wondering if what Joel was saying only relates to a shunt style R/R.

Maybe w/the series style R/R, bigger is better. I'm hoping some of you folks know this stuff enough to advise me so I can move forward w/some kinda confidence.

Also I noticed Joel is no longer posting. Has he left the ADV community?
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