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Old 12-18-2012, 06:00 AM   #16
fred flintstone
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To those saying you should not mod the bike, you have no idea how much better it runs with just the addition of a wideband and appropriate electronics (set AFR to 13.8 or lower). Night and day. All surging, gone. Most if not all agricultural feel gone. Power & smoothness out the wazoo. I am pretty sure the motronic and emissions hardware on these bikes was an interim band-aid solution, to satisfy tree huggers and other primitive life forms. More modern systems do not suck this bad, nor improve as much when you mod them.*

Really if you have not ridden a properly running R-bike, you're missing out.

*except say on some turbo cars where with just some reprogramming you can up the boost quite a lot.
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Old 12-18-2012, 06:51 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by El Gato View Post
I have family in Greece and have been there many times. There are few places on the planet that could benefit more from people leaving emissions equipment in place than Athens.


Quote:
Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
Does your Y-pipe have an O2 sensor installed and is it connected? Without one, your bike will never run its best.

Yes it have.

I'd say put it back to stock, add a Wideband O2 sensor programmed to 13.8:1 and 3.5 bar fuel pressure regulator and you will transform your motorcycle. I've posted dyno data in my Wideband o2 thread that shows the Ho and torque you get with this approach. It's not magic, get more fuel to burn in each combustion cycle and you do get more power.

I assume the OP wants more HP and torque. An innovate LC-1 or a properly set up Wideband Powercommander III USB will easily do that.
Can you tell me more for this system? When you tell me "put it back to stock" you mean to put the stock cat again?
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Old 12-18-2012, 07:47 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by ALX View Post




Can you tell me more for this system? When you tell me "put it back to stock" you mean to put the stock cat again?
So with an O2 sensor installed and connected, your Motronic should slowly adapt to your exhaust to some degree. The hard thing to know with aftermarket exhausts is how they impact the VE (volumetric efficiancy) of your engine. You probably saw what Def and Steptoe said about exhausts and I have no reason not to agree with them.

If you added a Powercommander III USB with functioning Wideband O2 sensor, brought your motorcycle to a good dyno person, you might be able to get back to stock or even a bit better here and there.

I know it sounds radical, but if I bought your bike I would sell the exhaust (and K&N) to someone who likes the look and put the stock equipment back on (literally speaking I have been doing that to the RT I bought, taking off aftermarket stuff and returning the bike to stock). Then if I wanted more performance, especially in the low end, I would add an Innovate Motorsports LC-1 (see my long thread on Widebands).

RB
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Old 12-18-2012, 08:22 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by fred flintstone View Post
To those saying you should not mod the bike, you have no idea how much better it runs with just the addition of a wideband and appropriate electronics (set AFR to 13.8 or lower). Night and day. All surging, gone. Most if not all agricultural feel gone. Power & smoothness out the wazoo. I am pretty sure the motronic and emissions hardware on these bikes was an interim band-aid solution, to satisfy tree huggers and other primitive life forms. More modern systems do not suck this bad, nor improve as much when you mod them.*

Really if you have not ridden a properly running R-bike, you're missing out.

*except say on some turbo cars where with just some reprogramming you can up the boost quite a lot.
Removing OE CAT, induction and other engine parts in favor of a randoim selection of aftermarket crap without any knowledge of the consequences is just not very smart especially when it is done in search of more power and more noise at the expense or the envoronment.

If you want to improve the driveablilty of the boxer, that is achievable without resorting to removing emissions equipment and spending $1000s.

Listen to roger 04 rt and others who have done some excellent work improving the boxer without polluting, especially if you live where the air is already fouled.

Me? I am fortunate to live where the air is clean and pollution levels are low and I want to keep it that way. I used to travel up to Lake Arrowhead when I lived in the Los Angeles area. I was saddened when I had to return back down into the shust (shust=shit and dust) which was very visible from the elevation in Arrowhead. As a result, I moved from Los Angeles to the Chicago area where there is no pollution save a few crooked politicians and the harbor in Waukagan where OMC Corp. had been dumping poisons (PCBs) ruining the harbor for fishing for decades to come.

Keep your backyard clean or you'll regret it one day.

When I am greeted by a noisy H-D on the highway and the H-D rider gives me the typical wave of the macho biker, I respond with a big thumbs down. I don't need a lot of extra noise to announce that I am riding a motorcycle.

Seen on a billboard in 2003 while riding north to Milwaukee on I-94 during the H-D 100th celebration. "We would wish you happy birthday but you wouldn't hear us". Guess who bought that billboard advertisement?

Save your money on those pipes and other stuff....instead, buy your wife some flowers...the rewards? You'll see!
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Old 12-18-2012, 03:56 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by def View Post
Removing OE CAT, induction and other engine parts in favor of a randoim selection of aftermarket crap without any knowledge of the consequences is just not very smart especially when it is done in search of more power and more noise at the expense or the envoronment.

If you want to improve the driveablilty of the boxer, that is achievable without resorting to removing emissions equipment and spending $1000s.

Listen to roger 04 rt and others who have done some excellent work improving the boxer without polluting, especially if you live where the air is already fouled.

Me? I am fortunate to live where the air is clean and pollution levels are low and I want to keep it that way. I used to travel up to Lake Arrowhead when I lived in the Los Angeles area. I was saddened when I had to return back down into the shust (shust=shit and dust) which was very visible from the elevation in Arrowhead. As a result, I moved from Los Angeles to the Chicago area where there is no pollution save a few crooked politicians and the harbor in Waukagan where OMC Corp. had been dumping poisons (PCBs) ruining the harbor for fishing for decades to come.

Keep your backyard clean or you'll regret it one day.

When I am greeted by a noisy H-D on the highway and the H-D rider gives me the typical wave of the macho biker, I respond with a big thumbs down. I don't need a lot of extra noise to announce that I am riding a motorcycle.

Seen on a billboard in 2003 while riding north to Milwaukee on I-94 during the H-D 100th celebration. "We would wish you happy birthday but you wouldn't hear us". Guess who bought that billboard advertisement?

Save your money on those pipes and other stuff....instead, buy your wife some flowers...the rewards? You'll see!
Yawn. Thanks Granpa.
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Old 12-18-2012, 04:19 PM   #21
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Yawn. Thanks Granpa.
That should be grandpa, and I am a great-grandfather, FYI.

Fred, that altitude is effecting your good judgement...take a couple of deep breathes and tell me about your stationary engine.
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Old 12-18-2012, 08:45 PM   #22
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...take a couple of deep breathes and tell me about your stationary engine.
Fred, Sorry...I got you mixed up with ausfahrt (he resides at sea level)...my meds must be outta whack.

73
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:14 PM   #23
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This thread sounds just like the BMWMOA forum .Never a shortage of authorities .
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:24 PM   #24
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his thread sounds just like the BMWMOA forum .Never a shortage of authorities .
   Yes, it does get a little MRN around here at times.



  
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Old 12-19-2012, 06:06 AM   #25
fred flintstone
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Originally Posted by def View Post
Fred, Sorry...I got you mixed up with ausfahrt (he resides at sea level)...my meds must be outta whack.

73
No problem. Just to set the record straight I am quite familiar with what Roger is doing, we have discussed it at great length, I'm doing much the same with my bike WRT a PCIII wideband and tuning. I would point out that people who object to removing the cat ought to consider that spoofing the motronic into running rich using a wideband O2 sensor is also tampering with the emissions system, as is any of the other more or less elegant methods that people have found to make it run rich. Roger is also running higher FPR is I recall. In Massachusetts that is a capital crime I think.

Running rich constantly will eventually destroy the cat, and make it run too hot, in addition to causing higher emissions. If you care about things like this you should not do anything at all to your bike, not even Roger's mods, or Poolside's, or booster plug etc. Maybe not even ride it as that produces CO2, no matter how clean other emissions are. Stop breathing out also, and if you happen to die please do not decompose (methane is a greenhouse gas...so is water vapor so don't bathe either if you happen to keep on living).

The sad fact is that the motronic N-alpha system with narrowband O2 sensor + cat as configured stock is a very poor one as far as how well the bike runs, and strangles a brilliant engine. I have accepted the heavy burden of guilt associated with making it run better.
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Old 12-19-2012, 07:32 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by fred flintstone View Post
No problem. Just to set the record straight I am quite familiar with what Roger is doing, we have discussed it at great length, I'm doing much the same with my bike WRT a PCIII wideband and tuning. I would point out that people who object to removing the cat ought to consider that spoofing the motronic into running rich using a wideband O2 sensor is also tampering with the emissions system, as is any of the other more or less elegant methods that people have found to make it run rich. Roger is also running higher FPR is I recall. In Massachusetts that is a capital crime I think.

Running rich constantly will eventually destroy the cat, and make it run too hot, in addition to causing higher emissions. If you care about things like this you should not do anything at all to your bike, not even Roger's mods, or Poolside's, or booster plug etc. Maybe not even ride it as that produces CO2, no matter how clean other emissions are. Stop breathing out also, and if you happen to die please do not decompose (methane is a greenhouse gas...so is water vapor so don't bathe either if you happen to keep on living).

The sad fact is that the motronic N-alpha system with narrowband O2 sensor + cat as configured stock is a very poor one as far as how well the bike runs, and strangles a brilliant engine. I have accepted the heavy burden of guilt associated with making it run better.
Hey FF, that got my attention! A couple of things.

--Most cats will work effectively over a +- 5% range according to the Bosch automotive handbook. My final AFR target will be either 14:1 or 14.1:1, keeping in mind that I would like my cat to operate as long as it can—almost 10 years old now.

--My testing experience has shown that as little as a 3-4% lower lambda/AFR makes a MUCH better running R1150.

--A catalytic converter is NOT damgaed by running several percent richer. The reason is that the converter has only a limited store of oxygen in its Cerium oxide coating inside the cat. No excess oxygen means no excess oxidation means no excess heating. However, even a relatively lean mixture if it MISFIRES will present the cat with lots of unburned hydrocarbons AND lots of oxygen--I destroyed a cat in an Xterra in 15 minutes after a squirrel ate one plug wire.

--My fuel pressure increase is to improve atomization at the injectors, make up for the leanness of E10 and E15 fuel and to reduce the Adaptation burden on the Motronic. It has no long term effect on AFR because the Motronic Adapts to it according to my Lambda set point. I have measured this.

--You are right on with your last point. Just a little more fuel and the boxer motor is transformed. That I have demonstrated to my own satisfaction with almost a year of testing and published results.

Thanks for giving me the chance to make these points.

RB
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Old 12-19-2012, 10:36 AM   #27
def
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fred flintstone View Post
No problem. Just to set the record straight I am quite familiar with what Roger is doing, we have discussed it at great length, I'm doing much the same with my bike WRT a PCIII wideband and tuning. I would point out that people who object to removing the cat ought to consider that spoofing the motronic into running rich using a wideband O2 sensor is also tampering with the emissions system, as is any of the other more or less elegant methods that people have found to make it run rich. Roger is also running higher FPR is I recall. In Massachusetts that is a capital crime I think.

Running rich constantly will eventually destroy the cat, and make it run too hot, in addition to causing higher emissions. If you care about things like this you should not do anything at all to your bike, not even Roger's mods, or Poolside's, or booster plug etc. Maybe not even ride it as that produces CO2, no matter how clean other emissions are. Stop breathing out also, and if you happen to die please do not decompose (methane is a greenhouse gas...so is water vapor so don't bathe either if you happen to keep on living).

The sad fact is that the motronic N-alpha system with narrowband O2 sensor + cat as configured stock is a very poor one as far as how well the bike runs, and strangles a brilliant engine. I have accepted the heavy burden of guilt associated with making it run better.
In my post, I referred to roger 04 RT and others. I include you in the "others". You fellas have done some fine work that will benefit boxer owners who seek better driveability from their motorcycles.

I still shudder when I hear a boxer owner fitting a selection of pipes, filters, spark plugs and other aftermarket junk with little or no understanding of the outcome. These boxers of ours are air/oil cooled and part of the cooling is a proper AFR along with proper ignition timing.

Now maybe the new water cooled boxer will respond better to aftermarket engine add-ons but, I'll not bet on it until we have learned more about the engine management.

Merry Christmas Fred

73
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Old 12-19-2012, 11:25 AM   #28
fred flintstone
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
Hey FF, that got my attention! A couple of things.

--Most cats will work effectively over a +- 5% range according to the Bosch automotive handbook. My final AFR target will be either 14:1 or 14.1:1, keeping in mind that I would like my cat to operate as long as it can—almost 10 years old now.

--My testing experience has shown that as little as a 3-4% lower lambda/AFR makes a MUCH better running R1150.

--A catalytic converter is NOT damgaed by running several percent richer. The reason is that the converter has only a limited store of oxygen in its Cerium oxide coating inside the cat. No excess oxygen means no excess oxidation means no excess heating. However, even a relatively lean mixture if it MISFIRES will present the cat with lots of unburned hydrocarbons AND lots of oxygen--I destroyed a cat in an Xterra in 15 minutes after a squirrel ate one plug wire.

--My fuel pressure increase is to improve atomization at the injectors, make up for the leanness of E10 and E15 fuel and to reduce the Adaptation burden on the Motronic. It has no long term effect on AFR because the Motronic Adapts to it according to my Lambda set point. I have measured this.

--You are right on with your last point. Just a little more fuel and the boxer motor is transformed. That I have demonstrated to my own satisfaction with almost a year of testing and published results.

Thanks for giving me the chance to make these points.

RB
Good to know, thanks. I seem to recall we were discussing AFR's @13.5 and even under 13. I'm glad I do not have a cat on my bike as I plan to do some testing with the PCIII in that range come spring, and I think that would be too rich for a lot of WOT cat miles.

Thanks for all your hard work it has been very helpful. Even though technically you are raping the environment :) cat or not.
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Old 12-19-2012, 11:31 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by def View Post
In my post, I referred to roger 04 RT and others. I include you in the "others". You fellas have done some fine work that will benefit boxer owners who seek better driveability from their motorcycles.

I still shudder when I hear a boxer owner fitting a selection of pipes, filters, spark plugs and other aftermarket junk with little or no understanding of the outcome. These boxers of ours are air/oil cooled and part of the cooling is a proper AFR along with proper ignition timing.

Now maybe the new water cooled boxer will respond better to aftermarket engine add-ons but, I'll not bet on it until we have learned more about the engine management.

Merry Christmas Fred

73
Thanks Def. There is a lot of questionable stuff out there. BTW, I am a bit puzzled by some of the new water-boxer owners here on this forum who, before even riding the bike are ripping off all the exhaust and slapping on a PCV, having it "tuned". If it were me I'd want to run the bike for a few thousand miles at least, see how good/bad it was, where/why and get familiar before I felt the need to mod it. Especially with such a significant & historic change to the motor that really no one understands or has much experience with. Let me put it another way, if I am going to drop 25k on a bike and I'm not happy enough with it dead stock for a while, maybe I should have got another bike (or another 5 or 6 used bikes).

To each his own I guess.
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Old 12-19-2012, 01:45 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by fred flintstone View Post
Thanks Def. There is a lot of questionable stuff out there. BTW, I am a bit puzzled by some of the new water-boxer owners here on this forum who, before even riding the bike are ripping off all the exhaust and slapping on a PCV, having it "tuned". If it were me I'd want to run the bike for a few thousand miles at least, see how good/bad it was, where/why and get familiar before I felt the need to mod it. Especially with such a significant & historic change to the motor that really no one understands or has much experience with. Let me put it another way, if I am going to drop 25k on a bike and I'm not happy enough with it dead stock for a while, maybe I should have got another bike (or another 5 or 6 used bikes).

To each his own I guess.
You're right..it makes no sense to install a bunch of parts without benchmarking the engine to begin with. Those that do so are spending a lot of money, most of it wasted on parts that have little chance of improving performance. Open exhaust and induction stuff is the last place I would begin in an attempt to improve driveability. A little back pressure and well planned exhaust pulses play a role in engine performance, provide some needed EGR and improve fuel economy. As for unleashing significant horsepower, it just isn't going to happen.

An adjustment to AFRs will improve driveability. As for significant horsepower? You'll have to tell me.
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