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Old 12-19-2012, 12:25 PM   #181
Kommando
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
"Pro nannystater? How can you call a guy that when he's asking for more freedom? And...I never grasp for straws unless there's a milkshake in my hand, otherwise I think they're for sissies & germophobes!

I guess you didn't think I was really serious about my 2-4 A.M. proposal.

Seems only fair, since I can't buy beer here until after 12:noon on Sundays.

I think maybe you're a "closet pro-nannystater"!
Not really. I'm still trying to understand why somebody can be charged with DUI here when they're on a bicycle/skateboard in a park and not causing a disturbance or a traffic nuisance, OR if they're passed out in their legally-parked car with the engine off and no keys in the ignition. 'Makes no sense to me. Who are they supposed to be a danger to besides themselves?
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Old 12-20-2012, 04:21 AM   #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randyo View Post
uh, NO,

New Hampshire does not require seatbelts

we did not cave in to the federal mandate and we didn't loose our highway funding

nor does NH require helmets OR insurance


You guys caved pretty quickly to the National Minimum Drinking Age Act, which I hold to be a

far more egregious violation of US citizens rights/freedoms than a helmet law.





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._hi...e_age_by_state



Here's a blurb from a group of college presidents that is fighting for your right to party:


Should New Hampshire lower the drinking age?


Congress passed the National Minimum Drinking Age Act in 1984, which imposed a 10 percent reduction in federal
highway funds on any state setting its drinking age lower than 21.

The push to lower the drinking age gained momentum with the 2008 launch of the Amethyst Initiative,
a national coalition of college presidents.

According to the group's website:

-Twenty-one is not working

-A culture of dangerous, clandestine “binge-drinking”—often conducted off-campus—has developed.

-Alcohol education that mandates abstinence as the only legal option has not resulted in significant constructive behavioral change among our students.

-Adults under 21 are deemed capable of voting, signing contracts, serving on juries and enlisting in the military, but are told they are not mature enough to have a beer.




DISCLAIMER: NH is one of my favourite states, after intoxication.
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DOGSROOT screwed with this post 12-20-2012 at 05:50 AM
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Old 12-20-2012, 06:16 AM   #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DOGSROOT View Post



You guys caved pretty quickly to the National Minimum Drinking Age Act, which I hold to be a

far more egregious violation of US citizens rights/freedoms than a helmet law.





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._hi...e_age_by_state



.
NH was historicly 21 to drink to begin with it was only lowered to 18 for a few years when voting age was lowered to 18
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Old 12-20-2012, 06:51 AM   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randyo View Post
NH was historicly 21 to drink to begin with it was only lowered to 18 for a few years when voting age was lowered to 18


Yeah.

Six years of just drinking age laws.

Not quite as *Free* as advertised.

Still one of the best states though.




New Hampshire ratified the 26th Amendment May 13, 1971.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-...d_ratification

Here's their drinking age history.

New Hampshire:

Post-Prohibition(after 1933) 21
Lowered to 18 in 1973
Raised to 20 in 1979
Raised to 21 in 1985

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._hi...e_age_by_state





A lot of my American friends were bemused by how horrified I, a non-citizen, was w/ the fact that you had

conscription during Vietnam of voting adults who were forbidden by law to drink.


(I gotta admit that I was unaware that the drinking age was 21 since prohibition in most states...)


Time to get my ass outta bed for a beer and chocolate cake breakfast!
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Old 12-20-2012, 11:25 AM   #185
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Highway funds!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DOGSROOT View Post



You guys caved pretty quickly to the National Minimum Drinking Age Act, which I hold to be a

far more egregious violation of US citizens rights/freedoms than a helmet law.





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._hi...e_age_by_state



Here's a blurb from a group of college presidents that is fighting for your right to party:


Should New Hampshire lower the drinking age?


Congress passed the National Minimum Drinking Age Act in 1984, which imposed a 10 percent reduction in federal highway funds on any state setting its drinking age lower than 21.

The push to lower the drinking age gained momentum with the 2008 launch of the Amethyst Initiative,
a national coalition of college presidents.

According to the group's website:

-Twenty-one is not working

-A culture of dangerous, clandestine “binge-drinking”—often conducted off-campus—has developed.

-Alcohol education that mandates abstinence as the only legal option has not resulted in significant constructive behavioral change among our students.

-Adults under 21 are deemed capable of voting, signing contracts, serving on juries and enlisting in the military, but are told they are not mature enough to have a beer.




DISCLAIMER: NH is one of my favourite states, after intoxication.
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Someone has to pay for all that winter road salt. Might as well be the Feds!
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Old 12-20-2012, 11:35 AM   #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DOGSROOT View Post

Here's their drinking age history.

New Hampshire:

Post-Prohibition(after 1933) 21
Lowered to 18 in 1973
Raised to 20 in 1979
Raised to 21 in 1985

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._hi...e_age_by_state
[/COLOR]




A lot of my American friends were bemused by how horrified I, a non-citizen, was w/ the fact that you had

conscription during Vietnam of voting adults who were forbidden by law to drink.


(I gotta admit that I was unaware that the drinking age was 21 since prohibition in most states...)


Time to get my ass outta bed for a beer and chocolate cake breakfast!
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I grew up in Vermont, drinking age was 21, but we could drive 15 miles to New York and buy booze when we were 18

I went to college in NY where the drinking age was 18, then out of college and back in Vermont, I turned 21, they lowered the drinking age to 18. soon after, I moved to NH

notice NH raised the drinking age to 20 only 6 years after they lowered it, there were too many 18 & 19 year old alcohol related fatalites in those years and NH raised it on their own before the federal mandate, hardly caving

I'm torn between liking NH or VT better, I like NH politics, but in Vermont, its legal to pass on double yellows and no permit required for concealed carry
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Old 12-20-2012, 11:48 AM   #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randyo View Post
I grew up in Vermont, drinking age was 21, but we could drive 15 miles to New York and buy booze when we were 18

I went to college in NY where the drinking age was 18, then out of college and back in Vermont, I turned 21, they lowered the drinking age to 18. soon after, I moved to NH

notice NH raised the drinking age to 20 only 6 years after they lowered it, there were too many 18 & 19 year old alcohol related fatalites in those years and NH raised it on their own before the federal mandate, hardly caving

I'm torn between liking NH or VT better, I like NH politics, but in Vermont, its legal to pass on double yellows and no permit required for concealed carry


Yeah, you're right about the "caving" .

I'll retract that.

Was mostly just baiting you a bit.

Like bear-baiting at the dump, it can backfire!!!

I didn't want to hijack the thread away from helmet laws.

My intent was more to point out that there are laws that are "well-intentioned" and commonly accepted by

Americans, that are nonetheless depriving citizens of their rights in the name of protecting them

from themselves.

Motorcyclists get all bent outta shape about the helmet laws, and overlook plenty of others.

I'm too busy riding to give a flying f*ck about helmet laws.

Rode a couple of hours through NM helmet free just for the hell of it.

If I arrive somewhere and discover I forgot to do up my helmet, I feel sick about it.
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In what sense can economics still claim to be a science if its predictive capacity is so dismally low?
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Old 12-20-2012, 01:34 PM   #188
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I like having my choice, while 90% of the time I wear a helmet, I do it for comfort, not protection
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Old 12-21-2012, 07:50 PM   #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by farmerstu View Post
please please stay in europe.i think you forget that many of my parents generation died in germany to protect our liberties. it makes me very sad that now so very many are willing to give them up so cheaply.
THANKS PHILB, a clear voice of reason.
You're welcome.

PhilB
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Old 12-21-2012, 07:52 PM   #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuddingGeezer View Post
IMO, all legislation in the USA is bought by the lobbies. The AMA is a powerful lobby that has helped move 47 states with mandatory helmet use in the '70s to only 20 states today. Now the insurance companies have a more powerful lobby than the AMA. Why have very few and none of the major health insurers come out for mandatory helmet use. Health insurance companies have the money and lobbyist to get mandatory helmet use passed. It is know that with helmet use there are fewer deaths, but not necessarily less bodily injury. Health insurers pay claims for injury, not DEATH. If your dead, it doesn't cost the health companies a penny.

I wear a helmet, ATGATT has saved my life, certainly from catastrophic injury this past year in a crash. However, if you want to ride in only a jock strap and ear muffs, have at it. No skin off my ass, maybe yours
Nice for a spot of sense to appear. Thanks.

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Old 12-21-2012, 07:53 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by Butters View Post
Does discussing the issue intelligently involve assuming actuarial studies that don't yet exist will validate your point of view over others? Does intelligent discussion also assume a study will somehow overcome different people's views on the degree to which they value personal freedom?

Even if we were to assume that helmetless riding costs society some amount of money, at what amount does it justify mandating an individual's choice? Intelligent, moral people can disagree on that and no study will ever prove them wrong because it is an issue of values, not science. Much like people choosing how or if they practice their religion, people can have different, valid views and how much government interference they find acceptable.

Some people find ANY government interference in their choices unacceptable while others want to use the government to enforce their views upon others. Most people probably fall into a million different positions along the spectrum between those views. Please explain how some actuarial study (that likely could never quantify a number anyway) will invalidate somebody's values.

I'm curious too if a number generated by a study would make you support an outright ban on motorcycling since I'm fairly certain it would be shown that riding motorcycles has a significant societal cost. Maybe you simply forgot to take into account the unquantifiable value of a societal benefit such as freedom of choice.
+1! This!

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Old 12-21-2012, 07:57 PM   #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
I meant an ongoing "political" debate. There aren't any states which do not require seatbelts, are there?

Maybe the stupid people thing would work...If you fail the IQ test you don't have to wear a helment, or would it go the other way? Maybe the IQ test would be good for dealing with other legal & social issues too. But I guess we shouldn't go down that path....., or we might end up seeing the "Mensa Sperm Bank"!

Anyway, we all have the "right" to be as stupid as we choose. Because we're Americans!

( Personally, I try to avoid riding motorcycles & operating heavy equipment on the days when I'm feeling especially stupid. Come to think of it....I don't usually end up getting laid on those days either! Hmm? )
New Hampshire does not require seatbelts for adults. And yes, seatbelt laws are equally coercive and therefore unethical, and some of us haven't lost sight of that.

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Old 12-21-2012, 08:00 PM   #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atomicalex View Post
Which of the absolute-rights people thinks that mandating traction control on SUVs is a bad thing?
I do. I think it's a great option, but I think mandating ANYTHING is a bad thing, unless (and ONLY unless) that thing can be proven to violate the rights of some person other than the person doing or having it.

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Old 12-21-2012, 08:03 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
I really miss being able to drink while driving. I have always felt it should be ok for drunks to drive between 2-4 A.M., Seriously, who else is out then?

Mom's shouldn't get MADD if you're driving at that time of day....

Drugs, Gambling, and Prostitution should be ok then too, just so we can all try them to see if it's "worth breaking the laws over."

I want some REAL freedom & rights!
Driving drunk (or on the phone, for that matter) endangers OTHER people. THAT is the moral difference that determines whether an act may ethically be outlawed or not. Drugs, gambling, and prostitution are good examples of other things that shouldn't be illegal, and which outlawing them has done us no good -- while fighting them with coercion has done us much harm.

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Old 12-21-2012, 08:05 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by Offcamber View Post



It does suprise me how many motorcyclist in US are pro helmet laws when so many non-motorcyclist see riding as highly dangerous regardless of whether you wear a helmet or not. I should think any motorcyclist would oppose such laws because we if accept them then how far down the road is a restriction on riding all together....after all even in full gear your much more likely to be seriously injured on a motorcycle than you are in car.
+1. It amazes me that people cannot make that simple logical connection. If you claim the right to decide what level of safety another person must take, don't be a bit surprised if someone else claims the same right over you.

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