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Old 12-21-2012, 11:33 PM   #196
1200gsceej
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not that simple ...

I agree, except ....
As a culture, we just don't let people die, regardless of the fact that they were "making their own choices." So, they do not suffer the ultimate consequence - dying. Someone must bear the cost of their medical treatments (the insurance company, assuming the victim has any/enough - through other ratepayers). And whether alive or dead, the family suffers and that can be a direct (i.e. welfare) or indirect drain on other citizens.
So should I be forced to foot my portion of the money that gets spent on the person who is seriously injured? Isn't that a violation of my rights?

I think it is a more difficult problem.
-ceej

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Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
Because that's ethically wrong. It's coercion; it's force; it's a violation of the rights of free people to make their own choices about their own lives.

That's why.

+1. This.

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Old 12-21-2012, 11:42 PM   #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1200gsceej View Post
I agree, except ....
As a culture, we just don't let people die, regardless of the fact that they were "making their own choices." So, they do not suffer the ultimate consequence - dying. Someone must bear the cost of their medical treatments (the insurance company, assuming the victim has any/enough - through other ratepayers). And whether alive or dead, the family suffers and that can be a direct (i.e. welfare) or indirect drain on other citizens.
So should I be forced to foot my portion of the money that gets spent on the person who is seriously injured? Isn't that a violation of my rights?

I think it is a more difficult problem.
-ceej
Except your rates are largely based on your own health and decisions not those of someone else.

For example motorcycle riders in general get charged higher premiums as do smokers and overweight individuals.

Either way even if this was the case most would rather pay a little more in the long run than be coddled and told what they can and can't do.
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Old 12-22-2012, 12:08 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by duck View Post
And what price tag do you put on a lifetime of care for a helmeted rider?

Ever seen a FF helmeted rider T-bone a left-turning minivan at about 30 MPH and die instantly? I did a couple of years ago. Had that person been in the same accident in a car he would've walked away with maybe a bloody nose from an airbag and a sore shoulder from a seat belt.

.
In some States though he'd have gone through the windscreen......
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Old 12-22-2012, 01:05 AM   #199
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Sooooooooo if ATGATT with FF helmet, armored jacket, pants, gloves, and boots, became mandatory law, do you think the insurance companies would be so kind as to lower you premiums?
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Old 12-22-2012, 08:39 AM   #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1200gsceej View Post
As a culture, we just don't let people die, regardless of the fact that they were "making their own choices." So, they do not suffer the ultimate consequence - dying. Someone must bear the cost of their medical treatments (the insurance company, assuming the victim has any/enough - through other ratepayers). And whether alive or dead, the family suffers and that can be a direct (i.e. welfare) or indirect drain on other citizens.
So should I be forced to foot my portion of the money that gets spent on the person who is seriously injured? Isn't that a violation of my rights?

There is the problem right there. You feel that your "culture" should be imposed on others.


Keep your idea of culture and its laws that you make to impose said culture the hell away from my body. (FUCK OFF )

And stop with the cost argument already. It is so absolutely minuscule that it does not even deserve a mention in these threads. It is just parroted political crap!

People should have the right to asses the risk and take whatever measures to mitigate that risk in the manner THEY see fit.
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Old 12-22-2012, 08:40 AM   #201
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Originally Posted by aterry1067 View Post
Sooooooooo if ATGATT with FF helmet, armored jacket, pants, gloves, and boots, became mandatory law, do you think the insurance companies would be so kind as to lower you premiums?
NO. Because it will have almost NO EFFECT on their bottom line.
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Old 12-22-2012, 03:10 PM   #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1200gsceej View Post
I agree, except ....
As a culture, we just don't let people die, regardless of the fact that they were "making their own choices." So, they do not suffer the ultimate consequence - dying. Someone must bear the cost of their medical treatments (the insurance company, assuming the victim has any/enough - through other ratepayers). And whether alive or dead, the family suffers and that can be a direct (i.e. welfare) or indirect drain on other citizens.
So should I be forced to foot my portion of the money that gets spent on the person who is seriously injured? Isn't that a violation of my rights?

I think it is a more difficult problem.
-ceej
No, you shouldn't. Yes, that is a more difficult problem. But that IS the problem, and it is NOT solved by applying coercion to others and violating their rights.

PhilB
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Old 12-22-2012, 03:13 PM   #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
There is the problem right there. You feel that your "culture" should be imposed on others.

Keep your idea of culture and its laws that you make to impose said culture the hell away from my body. (FUCK OFF )

And stop with the cost argument already. It is so absolutely minuscule that it does not even deserve a mention in these threads. It is just parroted political crap!

People should have the right to asses the risk and take whatever measures to mitigate that risk in the manner THEY see fit.
This!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by aterry1067 View Post
Sooooooooo if ATGATT with FF helmet, armored jacket, pants, gloves, and boots, became mandatory law, do you think the insurance companies would be so kind as to lower you premiums?
NO. Because it will have almost NO EFFECT on their bottom line.
And this! And even if it does, that is ZERO justification for violating your rights.

I'll say again: It amazes me that people cannot make that simple logical connection. If you claim the right to decide what level of safety another person must take, don't be a bit surprised if someone else claims the same right over you.

PhilB
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Old 12-22-2012, 05:15 PM   #204
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Privately-owned motorized vehicles are too dangerous. Let's outlaw them. They cost society too much...fuel, pollution, insurance, raw materials, medical trauma, and even death. I don't have a problem with it.

Population growth costs society too much...pollution, consumption of resources, increased crime, etc. Let's outlaw having more than 2 kids per couple. Illegitimacy and divorce should be outlawed too. I don't have a problem with it.

Activities like snowboarding, skiing, surfing, skydiving, rockclimbing, rollerblading, recreational scuba-diving, ALL contact sports, and boating should be outlawed. They are too dangerous, too costly to society, and serve no real purpose anyway. I don't have a problem with it. All you freedom-lovin' crazies can suck it!

Leaving the house without full kevlar and CE body-armor is too dangerous. We should outlaw that craziness.too.




You control freaks need to get over yourselves.

Kommando screwed with this post 12-22-2012 at 05:44 PM
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Old 12-23-2012, 05:59 AM   #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
This!!!

And this! And even if it does, that is ZERO justification for violating your rights.

I'll say again: It amazes me that people cannot make that simple logical connection. If you claim the right to decide what level of safety another person must take, don't be a bit surprised if someone else claims the same right over you.

PhilB


This statement alone should shut down these threads. That's the exact statement that opened my eyes many years ago.

Unfortunately some folks are too dense/self righteous to get it.
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Old 12-23-2012, 09:13 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by farmerstu View Post
please please stay in europe.i think you forget that many of my parents generation died in germany to protect our liberties. it makes me very sad that now so very many are willing to give them up so cheaply.
THANKS PHILB, a clear voice of reason.
While they were there protecting our liberties they were forced to wear helmets, gee i wonder why?

Beyond a shadow of a doubt a helmet has saved my life more than once, I simply won't ride without it. Now with way more cars on the roads (ie way more shitty drivers) plus cellphones, all the more reasons to wear one!

Therefore I could give a rats ass if someone takes that liberty away from anyone! (I can here the whiners already....oh next it will be another liberty gone....like assault rifles or Big Macs blah blah blah)

Count yourself lucky if ya haven't crashed and landed on your head!
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Old 12-23-2012, 09:21 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by BigToad View Post
While they were there protecting our liberties they were forced to wear helmets, gee i wonder why?
they were under martial law. GI= Government Issue there's the right way, the wrong way and the Army way, something civilians are not subject too

I don't believe anyone here is advocating not wearing a helmet, just standing for what we believe in, choice
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Old 12-23-2012, 09:25 AM   #208
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The right crash,at 5 mph,can kill you,rather its landing on the wrong part of your head off a horse,bicycle,motorcycle,skateboard or falling off a curb.
But only if you dont have a helmet on.

There are way too may people in the world as it stands,its the main cause of societies problems.Overcrowding is choking every part of our society and the world's.

By all means be a volunteer,dont wear a helmet. Ive banged my head on trees enough trailriding that I get the jist of it,dont want to bruise my brain.
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Old 12-23-2012, 06:05 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by Foot dragger View Post

There are way too may people in the world as it stands,its the main cause of societies problems.


Either me or my wife says that almost daily. Over population is the root of ALL societies issues.
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Old 12-29-2012, 07:31 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
Let those who ride decide. Keep your laws off my person.

Idiot.

Let those who pay into the Michigan Catastraphic fund decide.

You have proven yourself unreliable for anything but spleen and sound bites.
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