2013 Dakar Pre-Event Discussion

[troy safari carpente]

Originally Posted by cyborg

This is getting good, F5 in the warm-up stages.

Doyle sure knows how to turn up the pressure valve on the f5irehose!

[too old]

Originally Posted by troy safari carpente

Doyle sure knows how to turn up the pressure valve on the f5irehose!

It will certainly add spice to the tactical chat and speculation during the 2 weeks

The whole thing still sounds rather bizarre though when considering all the dynamics that are in play, and why? - unless Helder made the decision himself, but then where would he be going?

Answers on a postcard please

[Sylvia]

Originally Posted by troy safari carpente

Doyle sure knows how to turn up the pressure valve on the f5irehose!

Impeccable timing has Doyle. Valve adjustments before the first stage, has the whole field in a twitch.

So Is Doyle opening the first stage for this year's f5ing feast? Its seems very fitting.

[Brodovitch]

Maybe, in this economy KTM have realised for marketing purposes that they don't need two top notch European riders, and want to groom someone from another corner of the planet (Casseli, or target Helder who speaks the same language as the Brazilian market?). After a decade of dominance, they could be switching focus to the Moto3 category which is wildly popular in the emerging Asian markets

Maybe, just maybe, the split is mutual, or even instigated by Mattighoffen? For Cyril I would like to see which mega name sponsor he could bring on board. R B and monster are already spoken for...

On the motogp analogy (which is a good one) methinks it is similar to an Italian alien's pairing with a certain red marque from Bologna. Over confident, over ambitious and a bit greedy to enlarge the bank account before retiring for 4 wheels.

Another angle (extremely far fetched): maybe Honda -who have been entirely missing from 4 wheeled competition- have promised CD a place on a yet to be announced car effort starting in '16 - '17

Ok I'll stop now

I am sure some people who have been following KTM since their underdog days might be tempted to say good riddance et Bon chance. I might be one of them, even if it means runner up position for team orange in '14

[troy safari carpente]

Originally Posted by too old

Answers on a postcard please

I dunno... but if I was Helder, I'd be pissed. Jump on board a new (but great potential) factory project, help form, develop and refine the R&D package from scratch... building for a future dynasty perhaps?

And then you get bumped after the "premier", because they hire a(n even) big(ger) name from the rival empire after all the groundwork is done...?

I don't know who said it originally; but a faithfull footsoldier is often a more committed ally than a hired mercinary. In the heat of battle it can be the sense of dedication and cameraderie that makes the difference... not the size of the paycheck... just ask Ducati/Yamaha, Ferrari/Sauber Mercedes etc.

[Balkan Boy]

I don't think they will drop Helder because it's way too unreasonable at the moment. Countless reasons not do it.
Or ...
Did Helder receive an offer he couldn't refuse from KTM?


I think there's more analogy to this in WRC with Loeb/Sordo/Ogier/Hirvonen shuffle in the past three years.
Someone may be benched for a few years, someone will take a step back and the king will be king.

[doyle]

It certainly wouldn't be unusual in motorsport to have some shakeup/team jumping in the relatively stagnant (team/rider wise) world that is moto rally. Some feel nothing left to prove. Others have caught up to KTM, like Husqvarna with a comparatively smaller effort and HRC out of the gate. Surely KTM is top of the heap, but others have caught on rather quickly. Maybe a jump to HRC gives CD a bit more of a future as he chases Peterhansel's win record? HRC wants to win and I can imagine that Henk Hellegers and Katsumi Yamazaki are under big pressure to produce results quickly.

Sam and Zanol getting hurt to the point of being out of the race can only be seen as a major failure in Japanese circles regardless of the circumstances. I would expect that the rally arm of HRC has a very small window and are on a very short leash to produce quickly. Put in that position, what would you do? Quiet, reserved Helder who is fast and smooth, but not unquestionably alien in ability or use Helder money to go after the one rider who has proven the best results over the past decade, has name recognition, and is supremely marketable?

[JMo (& piglet)]

Phew... a week is a long time in rallying! - if only changing teams was as simple as it is Legoland!







Jx

[Brodovitch]

That's scary. It sort of spells KTMs withdrawal from the Dakar to focus on other racing pursuits, and stinks of racing programs dictated by marketing teams. It seems for the last ten years that both car and bike marques have been trying to keep out of each others way which is a damn shame. For example the cars. First mitsu, they retire And hand over the keys to vw who clean sweep for 4 years, who then leave the party and pass the keys to mini. This isn't head to head racing but a marketing exercise with the veneer of competition.

In the bikes less so, but it just starts to stink as if the marketing depts meet in some secret Bilderberg bunker and cut up the racing schedule so as to notch up wins unopposed. "We'll give you moto3 for the next 5 years to prop up your duke 200/390 sales if you give us the Dakar" kind of thing. However, look at HRC leaving after they launched the Africa twin. Or BMW's one off effort with Sainct to sell a gazillion F650s.

Point being that the really scary scenario in all of this -might never happen and I am just being paranoid- is that KTM desert the Dakar having nothing left to prove after 10 years. With so much money invested in winning, who wants to tarnish that image by potentially losing to the increasing efforts of HRC? Walk away while you're still on top, save face and all that...

I hope I am wrong because just the thought really depresses me. While the 450 formula is supposed to generate competition, the marketing departments (may they all burn in hell) have a different agenda

[too old]

Originally Posted by doyle

It certainly wouldn't be unusual in motorsport

Sam and Zanol getting hurt to the point of being out of the race can only be seen as a major failure in Japanese circles regardless of the circumstances. I would expect that the rally arm of HRC has a very small window and are on a very short leash to produce quickly. Put in that position, what would you do? Quiet, reserved Helder who is fast and smooth, but not unquestionably alien in ability or use Helder money to go after the one rider who has proven the best results over the past decade, has name recognition, and is supremely marketable?

But to have this in place before the 2013 Dakar has run and they can see what their only option in Helder can do, or maybe having the Gaelic influence could be seen as a political move with the ASO & FIM

[Brodovitch]

Cyril has the added benefit of his manager which I am told holds extra weight with the ASO

[troy safari carpente]

Originally Posted by doyle

It certainly wouldn't be unusual in motorsport to have some shakeup/team jumping in the relatively stagnant (team/rider wise) world that is moto rally. Some feel nothing left to prove. Others have caught up to KTM, like Husqvarna with a comparatively smaller effort and HRC out of the gate. Surely KTM is top of the heap, but others have caught on rather quickly. Maybe a jump to HRC gives CD a bit more of a future as he chases Peterhansel's win record? HRC wants to win and I can imagine that Henk Hellegers and Katsumi Yamazaki are under big pressure to produce results quickly.

Sam and Zanol getting hurt to the point of being out of the race can only be seen as a major failure in Japanese circles regardless of the circumstances. I would expect that the rally arm of HRC has a very small window and are on a very short leash to produce quickly. Put in that position, what would you do? Quiet, reserved Helder who is fast and smooth, but not unquestionably alien in ability or use Helder money to go after the one rider who has proven the best results over the past decade, has name recognition, and is supremely marketable?

whoa, whoa whoa... Rewind the audio tape... before we get too far ahead of ourselves with the Bordone-Ferrari like PR superlatives Doyle... The "others" may have caught up (well, sniffing at their coat tails might be more like it ) but to date NOBODY has beaten KTM - at the factory level - in Rally Raid consistently or otherwise over the last 10 years. Sure Helder pulled a title a couple of years back with his Yamaha/Portugal effort, Husky/Speedbrain have taken one event win (Pharoahs) last year... and a few other semi-privateer efforts have tasted glory in the des Sertoes etc. over the last few season since formula 450 took off... but ALMOST all of these have been when the bigboy's at KTM were away and not playing in the sandpit. But to this point in time no one has beaten KTM head to head (the last to do so was the BMW factory effort back in 2000/2001) at their own game. So anyone jumping ship from the Mattighofen inner sanctum, must have had a heap of lettuce waved at them, cause it makes NO tactical sense as far as secuting victory goes. The events of the HRC testing in California just show how unpredictable the card table can be for those joining the game... no matter how well financially backed they are.


From a PR perspective; I think it's pretty crap of HRC... I can't see that they will get any added value (other than purely name/notoriety) from Cyril's defection (if the rumour/speculation is true).

The badwill created by leaving the orange fold after a decade, would really put a dent in his market patina/profile in my opinion. And after all, if his "used by" date comes up in two years... three at best (if he wants to chase Peterhansels record, he needs to get le' finger out... he's behind the time curve as it is), and meanwhile the gratitude, enthusiasm and groundswell that would have been created behind bringing Helder over to the HRC squad and building for the future with a new generation of rally empire... THAT would be a forward thinking program in my mind. Now they're just hiring the old emporer from the existing dynasty. A typical Japanese "copy" tactic.... and like you say; they're probably under pressure... well history shows us how that works... they tend to prefer sneak attacks, and don't respond well under full court pressure.

I dunno what they're thinking, but it's not surprising... a lot of what they've done these last months has left me scratching my head...?

I honestly believe if this does eventuate, that they will make a "double edged down trade" by going this way... Despres loses a lot of cred in the bivouac as a long term member of the Mattighofen inner circle/family... and HRC lose (what I would imagine) would be a very appreciative, dedicated and proffessional rider; in the form of Helder... A guy who I am sure did not just take his decision to part with Yamaha/Portugal after all the years cooperation lightly... swayed most likely because he saw a long term future at HRC...?

As BalkanBoy wrote; it all seems pretty ill timed... maybe Doyle's sources are just pissing rumours? maybe not?

Anyway, as far as Despres is concerned, I cannot see DAKAR 2013 or the rest of the season being a stellar year at KTM, if he spends the whole time looking towards the door in November...?

[too old]

Originally Posted by Brodovitch

That's scary. It sort of spells KTMs withdrawal from the Dakar to focus on other racing pursuits, and stinks of racing programs dictated by marketing teams.

I hope I am wrong because just the thought really depresses me. While the 450 formula is supposed to generate competition, the marketing departments (may they all burn in hell) have a different agenda

Well recently Husaberg pulled back from rally so is that related? But as you say with the 450 standardisation this would make no sense and would be a real kick in the teeth for the FIM - just couldn't see KTM taking that on?

[Brodovitch]

Originally Posted by Brodovitch

That's scary. It sort of spells KTMs withdrawal from the Dakar to focus on other racing pursuits, and stinks of racing programs dictated by marketing teams. It seems for the last ten years that both car and bike marques have been trying to keep out of each others way which is a damn shame. For example the cars. First mitsu, they retire And hand over the keys to vw who clean sweep for 4 years, who then leave the party and pass the keys to mini. This isn't head to head racing but a marketing exercise with the veneer of competition.

In the bikes less so, but it just starts to stink as if the marketing depts meet in some secret Bilderberg bunker and cut up the racing schedule so as to notch up wins unopposed. "We'll give you moto3 for the next 5 years to prop up your duke 200/390 sales if you give us the Dakar" kind of thing. However, look at HRC leaving after they launched the Africa twin. Or BMW's one off effort with Sainct to sell a gazillion F650s.

Point being that the really scary scenario in all of this -might never happen and I am just being paranoid- is that KTM desert the Dakar having nothing left to prove after 10 years. With so much money invested in winning, who wants to tarnish that image by potentially losing to the increasing efforts of HRC? Walk away while you're still on top, save face and all that...

I hope I am wrong because just the thought really depresses me. While the 450 formula is supposed to generate competition, the marketing departments (may they all burn in hell) have a different agenda

I hate quoting myself,but, on cue, this. Notice the numbers gained in offroad and street bikes respectively (about 1 dirt bike to 4 road bikes), and the emphasis on the small capacity Duke models. Could be that Dakar is turning into a Veni-Vidi-Vici-Got the Tshirt affair for Orange.

Drama, Innuendo, Conspiracy Theories, Rampant Speculation. Doncha just love it?

[Flood]

I also think that IF the rumor is true, the background could be KTM retiring from the Dakar. Manufacturer of the year or not, they still aren't totally stable financially and they have been hurting since 2008. Keeping up the huge factory effort for the Dakar is a completely different thing for KTM than for a company like Honda.

Maybe KTM says 11 wins is enough, Coma is retiring and Despres is out to earn some more money at HRC?