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Old 12-31-2012, 12:02 PM   #31
Kommando
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Moore View Post
That's actually a great question. I used to tell my students that you can get through the vast majority of your motorcycling life by doing exactly what you describe. You sorta look where you want to go, you sorta lean over, and you complete a lazy arcing turn that generally gets you where you want to go. You may never need to do anything else. Unfortunately that technnique doesn't work when you need to turn the notorcycle RIGHT NOW. If you're never actively thought about countersteering you will not be able to suddenly invent that skill. That's why you should actively think about how you turn the motorcycle. I ask myself three questions. Where am I looking? What am I doing with the handlebars? What am I doing with the throttle?
Yup. You can half-ass a lot of things in life and still "get through" them OK.

I rode many things for many years before I ever took a BRC. It's easy to pick up bad habits if you don't learn good habits from the start, then practice them regularly. Even then, it's good to have a coach watch your technique occasionally.

Read, take a course from time to time, and practice what you learn. CONCIOUSLY counter-steering made me a lot quicker to react when swerving. Riding dirt has made me a lot more comfortable with throwing a bike around when traction is variable too. There is always room for improvement too.
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Old 12-31-2012, 12:06 PM   #32
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Why it is important...

The #1 single vehicle accident for New and Returning Riders is blowing a corner.

It is a human condition. A rider goes into a corner and something triggers inside them that they are going too fast. The heart rate instantaneously jumps... The brain goes into panic mode... it is almost uncontrollable. ALMOST!


If you train the brain to look where you want to go and to counter-steer then that is what it will do when this happens.


I have been riding for over 40 years and I still have this happen to me almost every year while riding hot on gravel roads. I need to force the reaction.
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Old 12-31-2012, 12:40 PM   #33
dwoodward
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I have two reasons I want to "know" countersteering:

1) if you know you're doing it, you can do it better; and

2) Riders that don't "know" they're doing it, frequently think they're doing it some other way- leaning their body into a turn (coincidentally pressing the correct bar) for example. When there's an obstacle to avoid, then they panic and try to steer to avoid an obstacle. The result is... not pretty.

As an instructor, I don't care which theory students believe makes countersteering work, or whether they believe any of them. They can believe there are gears in the steering head that are part of a CIA plot to keep terrorists off motorcycles if you want- just believe "press left, go left; press right, go right".
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Old 12-31-2012, 12:41 PM   #34
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My bike weight 450lbs I weight 190lbs.
I cannot let fear impair my reaction to the perceived threat.
You must control the machine or it will maintain it's current heading without any other input.
The machine will not react for you.

Body position, peg weighting, throttle steering(over steer) and many other things work together to turn the bike.

When Valentino Rossi sticks his leg out going into a corner it's not just for show.

Buy pushing your limits you expand you performance envelope.
If you ride like a granny you will limit any advancment in your skill set.

Aces & Eights screwed with this post 12-31-2012 at 12:46 PM
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Old 12-31-2012, 12:57 PM   #35
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original question-

Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishJohn View Post
Should I be able to make a CONCIOUS move of the handlebars to the opposite way I want to go or should I just continue as I am - having no problems in the turns etc without fully 'understanding' how I get around them????
And post #6


Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterW View Post
Concious really only helps when you realize you are going perhaps a tad too fast into the next corner. Then KNOWING that countersteering will lean the bike and turn it a bit quicker can be a life saver.

Otherwise - instinctive.

Pete

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Old 12-31-2012, 09:59 PM   #36
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On the track where I race the first corner at the end of the straight is taken at about 130MPH. It takes a LOT of effort to get the bike to turn in- even my little RS250.

Being aware of how ones control inputs are affecting the machine are really necessary to understanding what one is doing. You will find that you actively and consciously push or pull the bars left to go right and vice versa once you have done it a bit and thought about it. You can get a bike to lean over RIGHT NOW by forcefully counter steering, provided your speeds are reasonable. Get going really fast and you can work up quite a sweat.
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Old 01-01-2013, 01:46 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baloneyskin daddy View Post
Target fixation happens when you don't understand countersteering. While you look at the object you want to avoid you consciously try to turn away from it as you would in a car which sends you directly where you don't want to be.During normal riding countersteering is natural and requires little or no thought but in a stressfull situation you tend to go with what you know,or think you know. This is the scary part when I hear people say they don't countersteer, they are and don't understand it until its too late.
Target fixation also occurs driving cars. Is that because car drivers don't understand countersteering?
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Old 01-01-2013, 05:42 AM   #38
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Target fixation also occurs driving cars. Is that because car drivers don't understand countersteering?
Great question, glad you asked.

No.
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Old 01-01-2013, 05:45 AM   #39
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Quote:
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Target fixation also occurs driving cars. Is that because car drivers don't understand countersteering?
I would imagine it happens less in cars. I know I've had target fixation on the bike before, but can't ever remember having it in the car.
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Old 01-01-2013, 05:45 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duck View Post
Target fixation also occurs driving cars. Is that because car drivers don't understand countersteering?
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Old 01-01-2013, 08:37 AM   #41
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Quote:
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Target fixation also occurs driving cars. Is that because car drivers don't understand countersteering?

Rally car drivers employ the Scandinavian Flick, and they know to look where they want to go. Coincidence?
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Old 01-01-2013, 03:47 PM   #42
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Personally I wouldn't use target fixation in a conversation about counter steering. They are not directly related.

On a woods/mx bike a lot of counter steering only occurs when you are correcting for rear wheel lateral slip. A lot of woods/mx turning occurs with very little leaning. On a bike with woods/mx/trials geometry you can ride fairly fast before the transition to counter steering occurs. I wouldn't consider counter steering in the middle of a 35 mph berm. What little experience I have on a trials bike tells me you would never counter steer unless you riding on the road at speed.

A bike with street only geometry requires counter steering at anything over a pushing speed. I am amazed at how many life long street riders tell me I'm crazy when I tell them that they are turing the front wheel left to go right.

I don't think I ever actually decide to steer or counter steer when I am riding or racing. I react from experience (prior pain).
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Old 01-01-2013, 04:00 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer111v View Post
On a bike with woods/mx/trials geometry you can ride fairly fast before the transition to counter steering occurs.
How fast would that be? 1 mph?
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Old 01-01-2013, 04:31 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
How fast would that be? 1 mph?
It would depend somewhat on the particular bike and tires. On pavement I could probably due a large radius turn at 20 mph plus without counter steering .I can probably trail ride all day without counter steering to initiate a turn. There isn't any one magic speed that fits every bike/situation.
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Old 01-01-2013, 04:48 PM   #45
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We can argue all day about the technicalities of whether you steer or counter steer and at which speed.
I think the relevant points of the OP have been answered in this thread:

1. Push left go left, push right go right.
2. Actively pushing to steer is many times more effective than just leaning (and unconsciously pushing in the correct direction anyway), so knowing to do this correctly when stressed might save your ass in an oh-shit situation.
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