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Old 01-01-2013, 07:54 PM   #46
farmerstu
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Originally Posted by Racer111v View Post
It would depend somewhat on the particular bike and tires. On pavement I could probably due a large radius turn at 20 mph plus without counter steering .I can probably trail ride all day without counter steering to initiate a turn. There isn't any one magic speed that fits every bike/situation.
i think i'll let someone else drop the hammer on this nonsense!
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Old 01-01-2013, 09:51 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by farmerstu View Post
i think i'll let someone else drop the hammer on this nonsense!






Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer111v View Post
On pavement I could probably due a large radius turn at 20 mph plus without counter steering .I can probably trail ride all day without counter steering to initiate a turn. .

I would very much like to see that. Can I take pictures of you when you fall down?

If you are riding straight and then start your "large radius turn at 20 mph" A counter-steer takes place or you would fall down every time.

You may not push or pull on the bar but a counter-steer takes place. (you could take both hands off the bar and shift your weight to initiate but it a counter-steer is still taking place EVERY time)
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Old 01-02-2013, 12:34 AM   #48
Tim McKittrick
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For anyone still reading here is a nice explanation by Kieth Code. His "No BS Bike demonstration is very cool.

http://www.mistermotero.com/bodysteering.htm
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Old 01-02-2013, 01:22 AM   #49
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You will have been counter steering for years you jst do not know it.

Your tires move to the outside when you counter steer hard. Knowing this you can dodge minor road holes just by steering so the wheels miss and not change the line of the bike. In tight areas you also need to allow space for this/ Rarely will it come into play
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Old 01-02-2013, 01:55 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Tim McKittrick View Post
For anyone still reading here is a nice explanation by Kieth Code. His "No BS Bike demonstration is very cool.

http://www.mistermotero.com/bodysteering.htm
The No BS Bike is great, but it has sport bike geometry, my old sport bike was similair, with no hands on the bars, it went straight, and would go straight until it ran out of momentum. I could stand on the seat, stand on the tank, hang off the side with both feet on the same peg, the bike would go straight.

My dualsport however, yes I know I shouldn't be riding with no hands, will change lanes just by turning my head.

Countersteering is an arugement that will rage forever. Not long ago I complained about my brothers Honda VTX 1800 to another guy who had a VTX 1800. I said the steering was far too heavy to be comfortable. He told me I was riding it wrong, I should be countersteering, not regular steering. I argued that its not possible to go around a curve at speed without countersteering on any bike, he told me I was wrong, and I was not countersteering.

When I took a riders course to get my license, the instructors pulled over and said "Okay from here on today I want you to practice countersteering" So we're all confused asking what the hell we were doing in every curve if we weren't countersteering?

So I dunno, everyones an expert. I'm told it will steer easier if I push right to go left, its hard because I'm pushing left to go left. Wait a minute? It goes left no matter which way I push the bars? Practice countersteering? I'm just not seeing where I get a choice to countersteer or not.

Maybe throwing a whole bunch of body steer into it will allow me to avoid countersteering, but normally you're not going to consciously have to think about which way to turn the bars
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Old 01-02-2013, 04:29 AM   #51
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but it has sport bike geometry, my old sport bike was similair
In general "sport bike geometry" is made to be very fast in turning, much faster than dualsports. they have less rake, because thats what you'd want in a sport bike. ZX6R has a 24 degree rake vs. KLR 650 which has a 28 degree rake. Thats why those long front end choppers are very stable on the highway.

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Maybe throwing a whole bunch of body steer into it will allow me to avoid countersteering
Well yes and no, body steer by itself wont do much, but bodysteering will change the center of gravity, which will tilt you and the bike and cause the bike to countersteer by its own since your seating position changes. Therefor you are actually countersteering with your body. Bodysteering alone doesnt do much in steering.

Tepi screwed with this post 01-02-2013 at 05:06 AM
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Old 01-02-2013, 05:17 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Racer111v View Post
It would depend somewhat on the particular bike and tires. On pavement I could probably due a large radius turn at 20 mph plus without counter steering .I can probably trail ride all day without counter steering to initiate a turn. There isn't any one magic speed that fits every bike/situation.
Check this out. Countersteering is simply upsetting the placement of the mass of the bike+rider over the track of the tires. You turn the front wheel left, the tire track moves out from under the mass of the bike to the left that then *allows* the front tire to turn back to the right to make the turn without flopping the bike over to the outside of the turn.

So if you move the mass of the rider out to the right, therefore once again placing the tire track to the left of the combined mass of bike+rider, now the front tire can turn to the right to make the turn.

I'm both instances, the key is that the contact patches are no longer centered under the combined mass of bike+rider. Whether you accomplish this by steering the patches out from under the bike, or moving your mass out from on top of the patches, the effect is the same.

This works at all speeds including 1mph. The main difference is that moving the contact patches instead of leaning let's you reach the maximum cornering potential of the tires.
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Old 01-02-2013, 08:13 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by RVDan View Post
My dualsport however, yes I know I shouldn't be riding with no hands, will change lanes just by turning my head.
News flash. It does not matter if it is a Sport Bike, Dualsport or Cruiser. If you are moving in a straight line on a motorcycle and want to turn YOU COUNTERSTEER PERIOD.

When you turn with no hands on your dualsport a countersteer has taken place. It was brought about by a transfer of weight instead of a push on the bar but it happened or you would have fallen over.


Again. The reason it is important to practice the push Left go Left/ Push right go right is so that your brain will do the right thing when panic sets in.
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Old 01-02-2013, 08:41 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by shaddix View Post

So if you move the mass of the rider out to the right, therefore once again placing the tire track to the left of the combined mass of bike+rider, now the front tire can turn to the right to make the turn.
When you lean your body one way, the bike leans the opposite way, (an equal and opposite amount) keeping the COG over the contact patches. But, now that the bike is leaning, the steering geometry causes the bars to turn in the direction of the lean. So, you lean your body right, the bike leans an equal and opposite amount left. The steering geometry makes the handlebars turn to the left. Now the the bike starts to turn left the GOG vector shifts right and the bike begins to lean right. Once the bike passes vertical, the handlebars fall to the right. You feel the bike starting to lean right and you shift your weight left. When you shift left, the bike leans more to the right (an equal and opposite amount) and since it leans more right the handlebars turn farther to the right as well which is countersteering to stand the bike up or arrest it's fall to the right. etc, etc.
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Old 01-02-2013, 08:47 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Boon Booni View Post
When you lean your body one way, the bike leans the opposite way, (an equal and opposite amount) keeping the COG over the contact patches. But, now that the bike is leaning, the steering geometry causes the bars to turn in the direction of the lean. So, you lean your body right, the bike leans an equal and opposite amount left. The steering geometry makes the handlebars turn to the left. Now the the bike starts to turn left the GOG vector shifts right and the bike begins to lean right. Once the bike passes vertical, the handlebars fall to the right. You feel the bike starting to lean right and you shift your weight left. When you shift left, the bike leans more to the right (an equal and opposite amount) and since it leans more right the handlebars turn farther to the right as well which is countersteering to stand the bike up or arrest it's fall to the right. etc, etc.
The more you know!
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Old 01-02-2013, 08:49 AM   #56
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Old 01-02-2013, 09:06 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by shaddix View Post
The more you know!
That's the 100 proof distillate of several vintage adv counter steering threads.

Now, when someone decides to bring in gyroscopic procession I'm heading for the hills.
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Old 01-02-2013, 12:32 PM   #58
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Gyroscopic procession?

He's a witch! Burn him!
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Old 01-02-2013, 12:35 PM   #59
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Gyroscopic procession?

He's a witch! Burn him!
Does he weigh as much as a duck?
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Old 01-02-2013, 01:41 PM   #60
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