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Old 01-02-2013, 02:04 PM   #61
ParaMud
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So when I am going 3 mph and I turn left and I go left is that still counter steering or is that regular steering?
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Old 01-02-2013, 02:29 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by ParaMud View Post
So when I am going 3 mph and I turn left and I go left is that still counter steering or is that regular steering?
If that is truly what you did then you would fall over to the right.

Before you turned left you counter steered right in some way to make the bike tip left. It is almost imperceptible but it did take place. If not you would fall right.
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Old 01-02-2013, 03:06 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
If that is truly what you did then you would fall over to the right.

Before you turned left you counter steered right in some way to make the bike tip left. It is almost imperceptible but it did take place. If not you would fall right.

We have a winner!! One our our well meaning members chastised me for my earlier comment. Read the posts and understand my point. It is the most overused, missunderstood word in the motorcycle vocabulary. It also happens unconciusly and without effort. If you TRY to do this and aren't a very good rider, you will find yourself on the ground.
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Old 01-02-2013, 03:33 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by txwanderer View Post
We have a winner!! One our our well meaning members chastised me for my earlier comment. Read the posts and understand my point. It is the most overused, missunderstood word in the motorcycle vocabulary. It also happens unconciusly and without effort.

If you TRY to do this and aren't a very good rider, you will find yourself on the ground.
Cheers
Maybe so, but the funny thing about two wheels in one track is how hard it is to fall off with intent to do do so.

Anyone 'trying' deliberate countersteering for the first time will find it an eye-opening but pretty safe experience. Push hard on the right-hand handlebar, as if to turn the front wheel to make a left turn, and the bike will tip to the right before commencing a turn in that direction; this turn is easily countered by, er, countersteering the other way. As stated previously, it can be used any time you want to change direction fast. Which is not the same as saying every turn must be initiated using deliberate countersteering.
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Old 01-02-2013, 05:39 PM   #65
David R
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It worked for me

I have read many of these threads. I got to page 3.
It does work. I knew about it, but did not know how well it would work for me.

I don't use push left or right, I twist the bars with both shoulders when cornering hard.

Riding in the Adirondacks near chestertown. We were acting like hooligans. Going around one curve at a pretty good clip, the curve decreased. I "Pulled that effer down deeper into the curve". It was with the bars, not my body.

Countersteering Saved my azz simple as that.

One of the few times I dragged a peg on that bike. What a ride.

So all the discussion was worth it.

Thank you all

david

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Old 01-02-2013, 06:01 PM   #66
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try weaving the white lines on a empty hiway at 50 m.p.h. with deliberate countesteer it is very easy and requires no real skill. without deliberate steering it probably can't be done. that's why i use the steering with the learning rider elbows. i get the light bulb to go on right away.
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Old 01-02-2013, 06:30 PM   #67
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I appreciate the opportunity to express a wider view of "steer right to turn left" without this turning into an inferno.

I agree 100% that a typical street bike will not turn without "counter steering". That does not mean that every motorcycle works that way at every speed.

A trials bike is pretty much the other end of the spectrum from a street bike. I probably only have a couple hundred play hours on a trials bike. Anyone that has ever ridden one knows that you can see the front of the front tire pointing left in a left turn.

I know when I turn off a berm early on a mx track I turn the bars (front tire) left to turn left.
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Old 01-02-2013, 07:50 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Racer111v View Post
I appreciate the opportunity to express a wider view of "steer right to turn left" without this turning into an inferno.

I agree 100% that a typical street bike will not turn without "counter steering". That does not mean that every motorcycle works that way at every speed.

A trials bike is pretty much the other end of the spectrum from a street bike. I probably only have a couple hundred play hours on a trials bike. Anyone that has ever ridden one knows that you can see the front of the front tire pointing left in a left turn.

I know when I turn off a berm early on a mx track I turn the bars (front tire) left to turn left.
I tried several times to post a response that didn't sound condescending. Each attempt failed. So rather than try to explain the dynamics of how a bike initiates a turn I'll point out that both of your examples describe the front wheel while the bike is turning (after the initiation is complete). Your observations are true for all bikes - trials, MX, street & push - while they are already in the turn. Counter-steering is about moving the COG in order to initiate, end or modify a turn.

Perhaps you could explain how the laws of physics are different for you while on a trials bike or MX'er?

cheers,
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Old 01-02-2013, 08:11 PM   #69
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Maybe a simple statement will help. Countersteering does not mean the bike turns in the opposite direction the front wheel is pointed.
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Old 01-02-2013, 08:23 PM   #70
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.... I currently have (and the reason for going on the course) a Suzuki TU250 and have had no problems going around corners/bends etc -
Try doing a really rapid slalom within your lane, at a speed ABOVE, say, 40 MPH. What moves on the bars do you make?

With a light 2-wheeled vehicle (bicycle, scooter, light dirt bike, etc.) at SLOWER speed, countersteering is not readily apparent.

The heavier the bike and the higher the speed, the more apparent it will be. Indeed on a heavy bike at freeway speeds it would be hard to make a QUICK swerve without countersteering. It doesn't have to be a big move, often it's just some pressure with barely discernible movement.

At freeway speed, try consciously putting pressure on one side of the bars or that other. The effect should be pretty obvious.
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Old 01-02-2013, 08:29 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Jedl View Post
I tried several times to post a response that didn't sound condescending. Each attempt failed. So rather than try to explain the dynamics of how a bike initiates a turn I'll point out that both of your examples describe the front wheel while the bike is turning (after the initiation is complete). Your observations are true for all bikes - trials, MX, street & push - while they are already in the turn. Counter-steering is about moving the COG in order to initiate, end or modify a turn.

Perhaps you could explain how the laws of physics are different for you while on a trials bike or MX'er?

cheers,

I will readily admit that I am certainly not a physicist.
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Old 01-02-2013, 08:34 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Racer111v View Post
I will readily admit that I am certainly not a physicist.
Then you may want to have a short read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering

Jedl screwed with this post 01-02-2013 at 08:40 PM
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Old 01-02-2013, 08:55 PM   #73
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OK - this might be a really stupid thread/questions to ask. I learned to ride a bycycle at age 8 or so and never had problems swerving or anything. I got a step through Honda 50 at 17 and never had a problem going around bends or swerving etc. I got a Kymco People 50 five years ago and never had a problem etc. Then I went on the 'Riders Edge' course for new motorcyclists a couple of months ago and have been confused as all heck since about Countersteering. I currently have (and the reason for going on the course) a Suzuki TU250 and have had no problems going around corners/bends etc - but I keep seeing posts and threads and things that say things like 'If you don't UNDERSTAND countersteering you will never really be able to swerve in an emergency' and things like that.
I DO understand that you do not 'steer' the bike and that the 'leaning' is not really 'steering' it either - but what confuses the hell out of me is this :
Should I be able to make a CONCIOUS move of the handlebars to the opposite way I want to go or should I just continue as I am - having no problems in the turns etc without fully 'understanding' how I get around them????

Thank you in advance for any answers you may give
I had never heard the term "counter steering" until a few years ago, when I saw an article about it in some motorcycle magazine I came across.

By that time I had been actively riding bicycles and motorcycles for more than four decades, with neither the words of wisdom from any instructor, nor consultation of the erudite writings in any tome. It was just The School of Hard Knocks for me, softened by the odd bog or bramble bush as a kid down on the farm.

I read it, but didn't really get it, then decided that it was just a term some instructor invented to show off his learning..... I went for ride and decided that I had probably been doing it for years.
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Old 01-02-2013, 09:08 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Aj Mick View Post
I had never heard the term "counter steering" until a few years ago, when I saw an article about it in some motorcycle magazine I came across.

By that time I had been actively riding bicycles and motorcycles for more than four decades, with neither the words of wisdom from any instructor, nor consultation of the erudite writings in any tome. It was just The School of Hard Knocks for me, softened by the odd bog or bramble bush as a kid down on the farm.

I read it, but didn't really get it, then decided that it was just a term some instructor invented to show off his learning..... I went for ride and decided that I had probably been doing it for years.
People can ride for years and never be aware of how counter-steering works. I was riding with a friend on the Angel's Crest decades ago when I kept seeing him riding wide on the corners. He was going wide enough to scare me, over the double yellow and potentially into on comming traffic. He knew how to lean the bike but not how to make it lean more deeply. We had a quick talk about counter steering and his turns tightened up immediately.

Even just keeping a bike upright we have to counter-steer - just to maintain balance. As the bike falls left, we turn left to roll the bike back upright. We've all been doing it so long that we down't even know we're doing it. That being said, it's worth practicing to learn how counter-steering can speed-up our ability to lean the bike more quickly and more deeply when needed.

cheers,
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Old 01-03-2013, 09:34 AM   #75
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I usually dont reply to forum threads but I couldnt resist. If you are going to tell a new rider how to countersteer please know what you are talking about. Countersteering doesnt start until 5-10-15 mph depending on the motorcycle. Up until that point a motorcycle steers the same as a car. Google motorcycle counter steering to read many good explanations. Youtube Police motorcycle training, there is no countersteering while making a 18 foot circle. Just my two cents.
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