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Old 12-23-2012, 11:21 AM   #3211
MJS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DriftDragon View Post
I get that a lot.... lol. My brain has random access gears. The problem with Addarall is you have to remember to take it...


I am saying I don't see how ride by wire masks poor throttle response unless it prevents the actual handgrip from being turned faster than the engine will respond. Does a ride by wire bike actually prevent you from turning the handle too fast or does it ignore it when you turn it to fast? If it ignores it when you turn to fast that does not seem to me to change the riders perception of responsiveness as poolside suggested the new LC boxer might do.

Are you mechanically limited in turning the grip too fast? If so is resistance on a curve through the power band? If not how does ride by mask poor throttle response from an ergonomic perspective.


Again... I took his post on it to be speaking from a actual throttle perspective. I am interested in what that masking means to the riders twist of the grip, how does the expeirence of twisting the grip and the response of the bike change? sounds like the rider experience would actually not change at all... lag still experienced the same from a ergonomic perspective. I could not care less if the lag is in the electronics that fire the injector or the electronics that pull the throttle body lever because my experience as a rider would not change would it?

I see ride by wire as an implementation detail without real rider control advantage. Why would a rider care which is used if the experience is the same?
I'll take a shot at this...

With a cable throttle when you open/close the throttle the FI system has to respond to the position of the throttle body butterfly (thru the throttle position sensor input) AFTER you have moved the throttle. IOW, you control the air into the engine and the FI processor controls the fuel to match.

With TBW, the FI computer knows what you WANT to do when you move the grip. It uses that information to move the butterfly via a motor. Difference being, the FI processor can control all of the other FI parameters in conjunction with, or even in advance of, the butterfly movement.

The response lag should be imperceptible to you in a well designed system. But the ability of the FI processor to now control all aspects of the fuel AND air delivery system means lower emissions and potentially better driveability.
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Old 12-23-2012, 11:45 AM   #3212
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TBW also lets the ECU programmer change the relationship between the twist grip and the throttle plate. 10% on the grip might be 5% at the plate if they're trying to smooth out off idle power. This lets the engine designer give you nice linear power very easily, without making as many compromises in engine tuning that reduce power. On some newer car ECUs there's a sophisiticated map for the relationship between the throttle pedal sensor and the throttle body plate. If you have the right tuning software you can modify this yourself. That's a lot easier than going into the machine shop and making a new throttle cam.

In the cases where the owner has the ability to access the tuning, electronic controls are far superior to old mechanical ones when it comes to home tuing. I'd rather adjust the ECU with a laptop than replace jets, slides and needles in a rack of carbs.
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Old 12-23-2012, 12:07 PM   #3213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericm View Post
In the cases where the owner has the ability to access the tuning, electronic controls are far superior to old mechanical ones when it comes to home tuing. I'd rather adjust the ECU with a laptop than replace jets, slides and needles in a rack of carbs.
Funny, but fewer electronics, yes I know that is quickly becoming pure fantasy, sure makes for less gremlins and electron vagrancy! Old fart like me prefers stuff I can fix in BFE without batteries, solar power or satellites with just hand tools and ingenuity.

But that is just me.
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Old 12-23-2012, 01:51 PM   #3214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DriftDragon View Post
I get that a lot.... lol. My brain has random access gears. The problem with Addarall is you have to remember to take it...


I am saying I don't see how ride by wire masks poor throttle response unless it prevents the actual handgrip from being turned faster than the engine will respond. Does a ride by wire bike actually prevent you from turning the handle too fast or does it ignore it when you turn it to fast? If it ignores it when you turn to fast that does not seem to me to change the riders perception of responsiveness as poolside suggested the new LC boxer might do.

It's not about how fast the twist grip moves but WHEN it moves in relation to the timing of the engine (as in, where in the ICPE cycle the throttle is moved). Since the efi computer knows this, it can optimize the 'command' for more power (and by how much) in synch with what the engine is doing at any given moment.

Are you mechanically limited in turning the grip too fast? If so is resistance on a curve through the power band? If not how does ride by mask poor throttle response from an ergonomic perspective.

Not as far as I know.

Again... I took his post on it to be speaking from a actual throttle perspective. I am interested in what that masking means to the riders twist of the grip, how does the expeirence of twisting the grip and the response of the bike change? sounds like the rider experience would actually not change at all... lag still experienced the same from a ergonomic perspective. I could not care less if the lag is in the electronics that fire the injector or the electronics that pull the throttle body lever because my experience as a rider would not change would it?

I see ride by wire as an implementation detail without real rider control advantage. Why would a rider care which is used if the experience is the same?
The masking refers to masking poor emission related behavior from the engine and what the efi s/w has to do to meet emissions standards in ALL cases of engine response and performance.

With the introduction of TBW the efi can better match (less masking) the proper fuel/air delivery in all operating conditions with fewer emissions related poor engine responsiveness characteristics.

In terms of rider experience the difference is an extremely slight delay in throttle response, so slight that it's not really noticeable.

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Old 12-23-2012, 09:47 PM   #3215
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Regarding the Jumper Settings

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPickle View Post

I only saw references to 'really hot' and 'really cold' regarding jumper settings. As these are relative, can you provide the air temperatures you believe should trigger jumper setting changes?
Another relative way to say that is when it's nearly too hot or to cold to be out riding. I'm not trying to be obtuse, merely hoping to lower the perceived importance of the settings. The 'really hot' and really cold' settings do make a difference, try them and see. There is no risk in trying the different settings. No risk to the bike in any way. It might be that you like one setting over another.

As JJ says, many riders like to experiment with the different settings regardless of the outside temperature. According to their reports, a few riders prefer one setting over another even during pleasant temperatures, but almost everyone leaves the jumper at the -20C factory setting.

A more fundamental reason for the jumper settings is to maintain compatibility with the future IICE products.

-20C is the factory setting.




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Old 01-02-2013, 12:53 PM   #3216
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IICE Air with slip-on

The IICE Air (with -20 setting) noticeably helped throttle response (controllability) in lower revs and reduced the amount of backfiring/popping. There is still some backfiring/popping so I'll try different settings and with/without the spark arrestor over time to see what I like best. Overall a noticeable improvement! It was easy to install too!

Bike: 2008 R1200GS with Akrapovic slip-on muffler
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Old 01-05-2013, 06:44 PM   #3217
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I posted this in my local riding thread already but I wanted to post it here as well

So I got mine just before the holidays... a great present but family obligations meant I had to wait to try it out.

That thing literally transformed my bike. Just got it installed last night. As I left the driveway the bike was still cold and I thought I probably waited four months for a modest improvement. Within a few miles I was like... holy $!#&! It was as if a ten minute install had been me finding a hidden "make my bike run like crap" switch in the on position and had turned it off. All day I been thinking why the hell did they not make the bike this way to start with? Someone asked how it affected gas mileage. First, who gives a rats ass. Second, no way to know. Why? Because the damn low gears now actually have response like low gears and I found myself actually bothering to use them all day. So I have no way of comparing milage because my riding style completely changed today.

Seriously it is the weirdest thing... you turn the handle on the right hand side of the handlebar and the bike actually moves forward when you do it! Who came up with this crazy idea? Poolside did. He is the man!
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Old 01-06-2013, 03:30 PM   #3218
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I've had an interesting experience. Right after I got my bike ('97 1100GS) I bought a Leo Vince exhaust and have ridden that way since. I also did a jumper in place of the CCP, 30-87a.

When I got my IICE Air, I didn't notice a huge improvement. A bit smoother off idle and low throttle, but that's it. I also noticed my mileage was shite.

Yesterday I put the stock exhaust back on to see if it would help the mileage. I have no clue whether it will help the mileage, but DAY-UM!! The bike is now soooo much smoother and has a LOT more low end power. I was really surprised.

I set the IICE back to the "zero" setting and it felt fine, but lost a bit of pep. Put it back to -20 and it's got ZIP again.

I was really surprised by the improvement going back to the stock pipe made, but even more impressed by the amount of difference the IICE makes with the stock pipe.
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Old 01-06-2013, 05:54 PM   #3219
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How long did you leave the Iceair on with the aftermarket pipe? I wonder if the ecu needed more time to adjust itself with the two together?

I have a akrapovic slip on on my 07 1200 and the difference was substantial. It may be your older electronics can't adjust for the pipe and you need a power commander to tune things manually for the pipe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by YetiGS View Post
I've had an interesting experience. Right after I got my bike ('97 1100GS) I bought a Leo Vince exhaust and have ridden that way since. I also did a jumper in place of the CCP, 30-87a.

When I got my IICE Air, I didn't notice a huge improvement. A bit smoother off idle and low throttle, but that's it. I also noticed my mileage was shite.

Yesterday I put the stock exhaust back on to see if it would help the mileage. I have no clue whether it will help the mileage, but DAY-UM!! The bike is now soooo much smoother and has a LOT more low end power. I was really surprised.

I set the IICE back to the "zero" setting and it felt fine, but lost a bit of pep. Put it back to -20 and it's got ZIP again.

I was really surprised by the improvement going back to the stock pipe made, but even more impressed by the amount of difference the IICE makes with the stock pipe.
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Old 01-06-2013, 06:23 PM   #3220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DriftDragon View Post
How long did you leave the Iceair on with the aftermarket pipe? I wonder if the ecu needed more time to adjust itself with the two together?

I have a akrapovic slip on on my 07 1200 and the difference was substantial. It may be your older electronics can't adjust for the pipe and you need a power commander to tune things manually for the pipe?
It was on with the Leo Vince pipe for about 8 months, maybe more. Frankly, I never felt my bike did well with the Leo Vince pipe. I've only done a few miles with the stock exhaust back on, we'll see how it goes over the next couple of weeks.
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Old 01-09-2013, 01:28 PM   #3221
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I'm getting an R12R next week, bone stock.
Previously had an R1200RT that had a pipe and K&N airfilter on it, and I installed an ACCELERATOR Module from the guy in Europe with good results.
I reckon your unit works along the same lines as the Booster Plug and the rest. That about right?

Anyhow, I may want to throw one on the R when I get it next week.
Sorry, didn't have time to read the whole 3220 posts in this thread.
Maybe you can give me the short version....
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Old 01-09-2013, 01:36 PM   #3222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rapid Dog View Post

I'm getting an R12R next week, bone stock.
Previously had an R1200RT that had a pipe and K&N airfilter on it, and I installed an ACCELERATOR Module from the guy in Europe with good results.
I reckon your unit works along the same lines as the Booster Plug and the rest. That about right?

Anyhow, I may want to throw one on the R when I get it next week.
Sorry, didn't have time to read the whole 3220 posts in this thread.
Maybe you can give me the short version....
Sure thing RD. Here's the short version. (And thanks for putting the private message question in the forum.)

Yes the IICE Air works along the same lines as the products mentioned. One product has a different sensor location. Sensor placement does not change the performance, though many people maintain the intuition that it does. Sensor location has gone through many instrumented tests, and every sensor location on the bike performs in the same way. Science trumps intuition.

As you can imagine, the Air could have been built with a sensor out at the end of a cable. But other than being a gimmick, and catering to what people think is true, there was no point in it. Integrity trumps Marketing. (sorry JJ ) The sensor location doesn't hurt anything, it doesn't change anything either.

However there is one difference. The Air is adjustable so that it will work with upcoming product. Links to much more data, including sensor location, are listed in the first post of the GSpot thread. Link: http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=638412

You should be aware that these are not an 'inventory item'. Advance orders are placed, then I build them. This device turned out to be more popular than we ever imagined. And at this point the in-my-spare-time 'community project' is more than a little behind.

So, if you think you might want the future products, and are ok to wait a while as I catch up (and I am catching up), press the add-to-cart button!


p.s.: I love the R model, always have.



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Old 01-09-2013, 01:44 PM   #3223
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Cool beans.
I make an as they get ordered moto-item as well.
I'm not in a rush, but how long are we looking at?

And the first question was, this GS deal is a plug and play that will work on the R as well, correct?
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Old 01-09-2013, 01:56 PM   #3224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rapid Dog View Post

Cool beans.
I make an as they get ordered moto-item as well.
I'm not in a rush, but how long are we looking at?
I'm going to let JJ field that question. He hasn't had a chance to tell any tall tales lately.

And the first question was, this GS deal is a plug and play that will work on the R as well, correct?
Yes, it's the same for all BMW models. All the fuel-injected models that is.


p.s.: What moto-product do you make RD?



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Old 01-09-2013, 02:01 PM   #3225
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RDBBs

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Who's JJ?
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