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Old 01-07-2013, 08:57 AM   #136
duck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Moore View Post
Maybe if you had been thinking about countersteering at the beginning of the turn you would have gotten the bike snapped over quickly enough to make the turn a non-event. Or you might have realized that a simple mid-turn nudge on the handgrip in the correct direction would have made the turn a non-event. Willful ignorance seems to have worked for you in this case, but it's probably not the best way to go.
Your ad homenim attack of "willful ignorance" is much appreciated but I knew what countersteering was long before I started riding motorcycles and knew I was doing it when riding bicycles as a teen. My point is that "muscle memory," "lizard brain," reflexes, or whatever you want to call it is usually faster and more reliable than trying to think through physics while doing anything.

If you actually need to consciously think about countersteering when riding then you're a person I would never want to ride with.
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Old 01-07-2013, 09:32 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by duck View Post
If you actually need to consciously think about countersteering when riding then you're a person I would never want to ride with.
Yes, it's got to be automatic. But it also has to be the primary physical action used, automatically.

Riders that crash because they can't avoid an obstacle are trying to steer with body weight and don't realize that their countersteering input- if any- is happening.

Every once in a while I still get a student in a basic class- typically there because he crashed and didn't have an endorsement- that has ridden for years (sometimes decades) knowing that he steered the motorcycle by leaning his body into the turn. Quite frequently, the same person knows that once a bike is rolling, trying to do any sort of directional control withthe bars is only good for layin 'er down.
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Old 01-07-2013, 11:53 AM   #138
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here is another example. Going UP hill like a bat outa hell on my Versys with a passenger. Probably 4th gear wide open throttle. Its a long hill with curves all the way up.

The hill has passing lane so its a good one to fly up. How often do you see cops with radar when going
UP a hill?

Towards the to near 80 mph, there is an S turn. With passenger on I had to crank the bars, as in put a whole lot
of muscle into it to bring the bike from one lean to the other with no pause going straight.

It took a LOT of muscle to wheel the bike over for the second half of the S turn.

If I was not countersteering I would have not been able to go near that fast around those curves. Ida crashed.

I also was coming out of the swamps tooling along. At the end of the road is an S curve but a slow one. I was probably going 15 mph on my RT. I tried countersteering to get the bike to stay in the lane. It didn't work. I ran wide. I was the only one there. It did not work as well going slow. I do not know what the magic number is, I DO know it did not work.

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Old 01-07-2013, 02:19 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by farmerstu View Post
the point is you apparently believe that countersteering begins at some magical speed,while there are numerous posts on this thread that prove that's a myth. counter steering begins as soon as you pick your feet up and become a single track vehicle.
the part about the horseriding is to illustrate the point that many riders may be able to get from point a to point b and do it for years but they really don't have control.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boon Booni View Post
Seriously? When pushing the bike, while walking next to it? Are you high?


Even when making a slow u-turn, the bike has to lean into the turn or it will fall over toward the outside of the turn. To make the bike lean you had to counter steer.
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Originally Posted by Jim Moore View Post
In your garage you are no longer a two-wheel inline vehicle. Your feet are outriggers, which makes the entire discussion moot.

In you second example, the countersteering occurs first. Countersteerng makes the bike lean. As the bike leans into the turn, the front wheel has reverse direction and turn into the turn. That keeps the now-leaned bike from falling over. So your front wheel ends up turned into the turn, but the lean / turn itself was initiated by countersteering. The same thing happens at high speed, but it's much less noticeable.
Hey guys, slow down. Countersteering to initiate a curve (lean) is NOT what I'm talking about. That is a given.

I'm talking about when you are moving already on a curve. When you are on a u-turn, in the middle of it, your front wheel is pointing into the curve.

Now, my question to you is this: at what direction is your front wheel pointing, in relationship to the motorcycle front-rear axis, when you are at a 60 mph curve to the right? Is it pointing to the right (into the curve), straight, or to the left (counter to the direction of the curve)?
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Old 01-07-2013, 02:20 PM   #140
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It didn't work?
You mean you went the opposite direction than you pushed the bar? Or you didn't go far enough in the direction that you pushed the bar?

Physics is not personal, it's the same for all of us. So I am very curious what really happened to you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lion BR View Post
Now, my question to you is this: at what direction is your front wheel pointing, in relationship to the motorcycle front-rear axis, when you are at a 60 mph curve to the right? Is it pointing to the right (into the curve), straight, or to the left (counter to the direction of the curve)?
At the beginning, to initiate the turn: to the left.
During the turn: to the right.

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Old 01-07-2013, 02:50 PM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duck View Post
My point is that "muscle memory," "lizard brain," reflexes, or whatever you want to call it ...
I hvae a name for it. "Willful ignorance."
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Old 01-07-2013, 02:56 PM   #142
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Lion wrote

"Now, my question to you is this: at what direction is your front wheel pointing, in relationship to the motorcycle front-rear axis, when you are at a 60 mph curve to the right? Is it pointing to the right (into the curve), straight, or to the left (counter to the direction of the curve)?"

All of the above...it comes down to all the inputs. Steering, brakes, throttle, rider position, grip of tires, tire pressure, if the rear is sliding and also the changing road surface.
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Old 01-07-2013, 03:11 PM   #143
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Funny story.

So it was my first time on a wave runner.

The wave runner has a steering bar and it leans to turn like a motorcycle.

So I'm going really fast on the wave runner. I'm planning on a right turn. So I start leaning my body to the right and push the right bar forward (like a counter steer). The wave runner leans it self to the left and turns left. I fly over the right side.
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Old 01-07-2013, 03:28 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lion BR View Post
Hey guys, slow down. Countersteering to initiate a curve (lean) is NOT what I'm talking about. That is a given.

I'm talking about when you are moving already on a curve. When you are on a u-turn, in the middle of it, your front wheel is pointing into the curve.

Now, my question to you is this: at what direction is your front wheel pointing, in relationship to the motorcycle front-rear axis, when you are at a 60 mph curve to the right? Is it pointing to the right (into the curve), straight, or to the left (counter to the direction of the curve)?
hey you're all right. it's good to have a discussion with someone with manners, i appreciate it. now as for the question.
1. a motorcycle or any single track vehicle has to lean to turn.
2.countersteering initiates the lean.
3.when the required lean angle for the speed of the bike and the radiusof the turn is reached the front wheel is turned into the turn.
4. if additional lean is needed(decreasing radius corner) or less lean is needed(coming out of the turn) the bikes is countersteered again.

i still mantain the best way to learn to do this is weaving whitel lines on on m.t. hiway. start at 35 m.p.h. and work up
50 should be dead easy for any rider. weaving cones in a parking lot doesn't seem to turn on the eureka lite for most new riders.
hope this helps.
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Old 01-07-2013, 03:49 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by i_4ce View Post
Funny story.

So it was my first time on a wave runner.

The wave runner has a steering bar and it leans to turn like a motorcycle.

So I'm going really fast on the wave runner. I'm planning on a right turn. So I start leaning my body to the right and push the right bar forward (like a counter steer). The wave runner leans it self to the left and turns left. I fly over the right side.
Try a Yamaha super jet standup "jetski" 800 two stroke with arm ripping acceleration.

I'm standing up and 6 times in a row it just dipped out from under me when trying to turn. Finally figured it out, but it defiantly will humble you and help to recognize the counter steering you are programmed to do automatically.
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Old 01-07-2013, 05:09 PM   #146
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My dad had a Snow Bug. Single ski snow mobile. Engine in the rear, wide track.

Get on go for a ride. Turn the bars left like a snow mobile. Fly out the right side like a high side on a bike.

Get back on , go again. Thow the machine to the left, then turn right. Hmmm it works.
Counter steer.

Most everybody that drove that machine dumped it the first time.

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Old 01-07-2013, 06:12 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Moore View Post
I hvae a name for it. "Willful ignorance."
Really? I first learned about countersteering from my high school physics teacher. I tried it later that afternoon when doing my paper route on my bicycle and, sure enough, he was right.

I learned a lot more about it when studying angular momentum in physics/dynamics to get my engineering degree. (Throw in lots of calculus here.)

When I'm in a turn my conscious brain thinks "turn harder" and my lizard brain does the countersteeering for me.

The only times I've ever thought consciously about countersteering when riding is when I'm bored on flat straight shit and just playing around.

If you actually have to think about countersteering while riding then you really need to work on developing your riding skillz.

Your definition of willfully ignorant is woefully ignorant.

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Old 01-07-2013, 06:16 PM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lion BR View Post
At the beginning, to initiate the turn: to the left.
During the turn: to the right.
... While tracking slightly outside the rear.
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Old 01-08-2013, 06:30 AM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duck View Post
Really? I first learned about countersteering from my high school physics teacher. I tried it later that afternoon when doing my paper route on my bicycle and, sure enough, he was right.

I learned a lot more about it when studying angular momentum in physics/dynamics to get my engineering degree. (Throw in lots of calculus here.)

When I'm in a turn my conscious brain thinks "turn harder" and my lizard brain does the countersteeering for me.

The only times I've ever thought consciously about countersteering when riding is when I'm bored on flat straight shit and just playing around.

If you actually have to think about countersteering while riding then you really need to work on developing your riding skillz.

Your definition of willfully ignorant is woefully ignorant.
Woah, an engineering degree! With calculus! Well, never mind then.

Just kidding. You're still being willfully ignorant. It's not a huge deal to me, but I think you're giving out bad advice. You are advocating deliberately not thinking about countersteering, and letting your "lizard brain" take over. I'm advocating making countersteering part of your deliberate thought process. IMO I can be more precise in my day-to-day operations if I'm actively engaged in the act of turning the motorcycle. Also, I'm more likely to get it right in an emergency if I have trained myself to operate the controls, rather than hoping the lizard brain gets it right. YMMV, and it obviously does in this case.
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Old 01-08-2013, 08:43 AM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Moore View Post
You are advocating deliberately not thinking about countersteering, and letting your "lizard brain" take over. I'm advocating making countersteering part of your deliberate thought process. IMO I can be more precise in my day-to-day operations if I'm actively engaged in the act of turning the motorcycle. Also, I'm more likely to get it right in an emergency if I have trained myself to operate the controls, rather than hoping the lizard brain gets it right. YMMV, and it obviously does in this case.
Both of you should go find a copy of "The Upper Half of the Motorcycle", which discusses this sort of thing.
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