ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Riding > Regional forums > Canada
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 01-13-2013, 04:02 PM   #31
G Goat
Gnarly Adventurer
 
G Goat's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: Calgary
Oddometer: 351
Quote:
Originally Posted by the kaz View Post
I think we should pay all natives $500 000 each and then thats IT ..... NO MORE!!!!! Plus by accepting the ONE TIME payment they become normal Canadian citizens who pay taxes buy fishing licences etc .....

I am pretty tired of people in modern society blameing someone else for their own problems. In my line of work we have many native bands as customers. Most of them are great to work with and are extremely well managed. The funny thing is the Native bands we work with dont seem to be represented in the current affairs. Maybe someone forgot to tell these other native bands that they are suppossed to be upset and screaming at the goverment ?
Maybe you could start the fund up for Justin?



http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thunde...-reaction.html
__________________
02 Ducati ST4S
08 KTM 530 EXC
03 KTM 525 EXC
G Goat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2013, 10:53 PM   #32
aquadog
Dude Buddha
 
Joined: Feb 2007
Location: Yukon
Oddometer: 654
One thing Idle No More is accomplishing is to bring into the open (finally) some of the internal friction in aboriginal politics. No, they're not all the same stripe. It's also illustrating the discrepency between some stated beliefs held (respect, understanding, extended family) and what actually happens. And in terms of respect, that they're not willing to treat other groups with much.

While the Indian Act needs reform, it is also the responsibility of the aboriginal population to reform from within - after all, from without hasn't worked despite having money showered on the problems. And joining the world may mean that you move from a location that either the band or DIAND chose as your village, even if it was a poor choice.

I think most Canadians are willing to support and spend on helping aboriginals find their place in society - after all, other more recent ethnic groups have. In some ways, perhaps the current situation can be compared to an addiction. The first step is admitting that you have a problem and it's not all someone else's fault. The addict has to want to succeed and change before that's possible. And like any addiction, there are those who benefit from it - perhaps some bureaucrats in continuing jobs, some chiefs and band members, and certainly a whole bunch of carpet bagging lawyers and others.

If this starts a process that lets aboriginals move forward, good on it. It is good to see a number of native leaders come out and make statements - far more rational ones - disputing the goals of Idle No More. Or more accurately, what goals? Like Occupy, it's sort of 'down with the man', and complaining. You have to have a point to have it addressed.

Chief Spence, unfortunately, is starting to look like what she may be - an unsophisticated person who was doing a bad job and wasting millions of dollars, is way out of her depth, being pretty childish and unreasonable.

In a previous post, I noted that the Yukon has mostly settled land claims, people are working it out and it's succeeding. We're probably 20 years ahead of most of Canada in that regard, although bands like Osoyoos, Winfield, Kamloops and others are also doing extremely well, having fit into the modern world without losing identity. It can be done if the band members want to, but it won't be easy. It is, in large part, up to them. Other groups have.
aquadog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2013, 09:27 AM   #33
Steve G. OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
Steve G.'s Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2004
Location: West is the Best
Oddometer: 6,618
Quote:
Originally Posted by the kaz View Post
I think we should pay all natives $500 000 each and then thats IT ..... NO MORE!!!!! Plus by accepting the ONE TIME payment they become normal Canadian citizens who pay taxes buy fishing licences etc .....

I am pretty tired of people in modern society blameing someone else for their own problems. In my line of work we have many native bands as customers. Most of them are great to work with and are extremely well managed. The funny thing is the Native bands we work with dont seem to be represented in the current affairs. Maybe someone forgot to tell these other native bands that they are suppossed to be upset and screaming at the goverment ?

In this particular case, with federal 'grants', and royalties from the diamond mine, that band was given over $1,000,00 per household [300 million,300 houses] ,,,,, last year. I'm thinking if I was given a million bucks, I could not only fix the roof on my house, I could make a real nice house. Instead, the chief there kicks out a federal auditor to figure out where the money is going, then,,,,while her people live in tarp houses in the freezing cold, she spends $96,000 on a second Zamboni, even though the government purchased Zamboni they have is quite good. Then she spends another $90,000 to have it shipped up there. Hey, my local ice rink has one Zamboni,,,,,like WTF??
I'm thinking the 'idle no more' bandwagon jumpers should be protesting her instead of that evil monster who's running the country right now.
Steve G. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2013, 04:37 PM   #34
aquadog
Dude Buddha
 
Joined: Feb 2007
Location: Yukon
Oddometer: 654
Not a Harperite, but that evil monster may stand up to blackmail like Chief Spence better than the Liberals did...lots of sobs, no progress. Verdict seems to be that Harper is relentlessly pragmatic, not a bad thing in moving ahead with a new Indian Act and deal. One thing to remember is that the government of the evil monster in it's first mandate did some very left things, like resolve the tainted blood scandal (by compensating those outside the artificial date) and gave rights back to native women off reserve. Just when you think you have them figured out, they do something quite left, and you WTF? Picture Justin Trudeau in this situation...no, let's not.
aquadog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2013, 07:03 PM   #35
Steve G. OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
Steve G.'s Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2004
Location: West is the Best
Oddometer: 6,618
Quote:
Originally Posted by aquadog View Post
Not a Harperite, but that evil monster may stand up to blackmail like Chief Spence better than the Liberals did...lots of sobs, no progress. Verdict seems to be that Harper is relentlessly pragmatic, not a bad thing in moving ahead with a new Indian Act and deal. One thing to remember is that the government of the evil monster in it's first mandate did some very left things, like resolve the tainted blood scandal (by compensating those outside the artificial date) and gave rights back to native women off reserve. Just when you think you have them figured out, they do something quite left, and you WTF? Picture Justin Trudeau in this situation...no, let's not.

I'm not a harperite either,,,I was kind of joking about those who literally thought the sky was going to fall when he was voted in. I'd rather have a boring, weird looking fiscal conservative spending my tax money rather than the ultimate fence sitters or the socialists. And another Trudeau running things? Don't even want to go there,,,,,,,
Steve G. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2013, 08:17 PM   #36
Commuter Boy
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Dec 2003
Location: Burnaby, BC
Oddometer: 2,773
Quote:
Originally Posted by aquadog View Post
Picture Justin Trudeau in this situation...no, let's not.
If he's anything like his old man I'd be all for it. PET was all set to abolish the Indian Act back in the 70's and let them loose in Canadian society with no other subsidies than what was agreed to under signed treaties. He got talked out of it as being a politically unsavoury option.

They have treaty rights, no doubt, but the majority of the money and funding they get from the Feds isn't related to treaty rights.
Commuter Boy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013, 01:30 PM   #37
Dan Alexander
Ride Far - Ride Fast
 
Dan Alexander's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2003
Location: Now only Montreal
Oddometer: 6,795
A columnist at the Montreal Gazette who was very knowledgable about Indian Affairs wrote often that the only way they will get ahead is to leave the reserves and join Canadian society. The future is to get an education and a good job and look forward. There is no life and nothing to look forward to living on a remote reserve where the ancient lifestyle of living off the land is now unsustainable.

Like Trudeau wanted to do, the best bet will be to abloish reserves, give some kind of settlement and relocation help and stop the handout mentality. Plus the sheer greed of so many of those in power who have little to no accountability is astonishing

I've been to quite a few reserves when I was in the fur business and I've seen first hand the mess some are trapped in.
__________________
Beemers Past and Present: 74 R90S, 77 R100RS, 85 K100RS, 2x 87 K100RS, 96 R1100GS (getting hacked), 99 R1100S, 2002 R1150GS, 2005 F650 Dakar
Plus the occasional Triumph, BSA, Yamaha, Honda, Suzuki and KTM but who's counting
Dan Alexander is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013, 01:52 PM   #38
nvdlboy
Studly Adventurer
 
nvdlboy's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2007
Location: North Vancouver, BC (right beside the forest)
Oddometer: 988
In 1990/1991, I had a classmate in university who was a well-educated and smart native fellow. He was a mature student studying economics while holding down a job as an assistant manager in a bank branch. He was quite pleased about the fact that he lived on a reserve in the Lower Mainland and that the bank happened to be in a mall on reserve land leased from the band. He kept refusing promotions and transfers at the bank because he was paying no taxes in this scenario and his university education was being fully funded by the band (ultimately by the taxpayers). Someone with his skillset and education would be an asset to the band, however, he had no interest in band council or leadership, he just wanted to use the system to get ahead. I'm pretty sure he would have been successful coming from a rural reserve, however, the proximity to an urban centre made his situation much easier to exploit.
Far too many people prefer to blame others for their situation in the world over hard work to improve their lot. Unfortunately, the natives' traditional ways of life is not viable for the majority of the natives in Canada, the world has changed since Europeans arrived in North America and people need to overcome the awful treatment that so many faced under misguided attempts to integrate or assimilate into Eurocentric society. There was a lot of abuse and mistreatment that was hidden away, but people need to address it in a meaningful way and move forward in order to break the cycle of abuse. The current approach is broken for so many and compromise will be needed to bring the parties together.
__________________
Current - Wee strom K7
Previous - DRZ400SK4
nvdlboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013, 10:12 PM   #39
aquadog
Dude Buddha
 
Joined: Feb 2007
Location: Yukon
Oddometer: 654
Well said. One thing to keep in mind is that some of the abuse was not intended as such, but was the order of the day to "help the natives". Society has become more sophisticated since then. In rural areas, residential schools were not only for natives... There is some tendency to cling to the past rather than move beyond it. Remember, deal, move forward. A lot of the "dealing" has to be done by aboriginals themselves, we can only support it.

Since the dark days, there are many, many programs that help an Indian get ahead if they want to. Free schooling with room, board, etc., tax free under some conditions, business advantages, preferential treatment for some jobs, etc., etc. The list is long.

Inter-generational effects of residential schools aside, how much more is there to really complain about, except the shock of meeting a new world? This was not the U.S. As for the passing down of school abuse, it's enough generations that you start to wonder if the current problem is more one of isolation for some bands, and a lack of something to do - no jobs in some of these places, or only a made-up one, with a big wage from the Council.

Hmmm. Let's be blunt. I had a girlfriend who had been abused by her father. I know what this can do. But even then, nobody is making Grandpa screw his 14 year old niece in return for booze. And if you think that's not happening on reserve...why aren't band councils doing something about it?

While schools were awful for some, not for all, and it did produce many of the current native leaders and lawyers. A bit of a Catch 22 there.

The vocal band members tend to idealize a society they never experienced, and that probably never really was. I had a band member explain the extended family to me, and it sounds great - when it works. Often it doesn't. Instead of the whole community looking after children, sometimes nobody safeguards them, and you get the Highway of Tears. No, it shouldn't happen anyway, but why are so many vulnerables put at risk? Because nobody cares enough about these young women to arrange a ride for them. Pretty simple. And the young women may not feel comfortable enough to ask. Stop talking about it and do something, when it's that serious.

The Pickton inquiry shows a bit of a travesty in terms of police work and communication, but it also shows that very few other people cared either.

Other aspects are also given a rosy treatment. It wasn't always harmony with nature, environmental stewardship and respect for all. Let's not forget that first nations practiced slavery, genocide of other bands on occasion, and mass killing of animals where feasible (bison). Today there can be incredible wasting of meat from hunting - shoot 24 caribou, butcher 4. Tools reveal what people do, if they have the ability.

It's a thorny issue and is going to take some time and good leadership in the aboriginal community.
aquadog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2013, 12:35 AM   #40
AKDuc
Alaska Born Ducatisti
 
AKDuc's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2006
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Oddometer: 6,524
Here's an interview with the very lovely First Nations activist and attorney Pamela Palmater:



She states that ultimately the goal of the movement is the protection of Canada's lands and waters. Now that sounds like something I can get behind. And for that reason I put on some Native duds and went downtown to show my support and concern for "The Great White North."

Me and my cousin Marcella. Her BIL in Vancouver BC made the Raven drum I'm holding. I haven't studded up the KLR yet this winter so I rode my Fatback instead.


A local tv channel shot our little gathering: http://www.ktva.com/home/top-stories...186559681.html They flash by us at about 1:40 and if you listen carefully you can hear me beating my drum near the end of the segment at around 1:58. Warmest regards from farther north, Mark H.

AKDuc screwed with this post 01-16-2013 at 12:59 AM
AKDuc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2013, 04:56 AM   #41
Dan Alexander
Ride Far - Ride Fast
 
Dan Alexander's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2003
Location: Now only Montreal
Oddometer: 6,795
Quote:
Originally Posted by aquadog View Post
Other aspects are also given a rosy treatment. It wasn't always harmony with nature, environmental stewardship and respect for all. Let's not forget that first nations practiced slavery, genocide of other bands on occasion, and mass killing of animals where feasible (bison). Today there can be incredible wasting of meat from hunting - shoot 24 caribou, butcher 4. Tools reveal what people do, if they have the ability.

It's a thorny issue and is going to take some time and good leadership in the aboriginal community.
This has bothered me since the Mohawk protests and bridge blocking in and around Montreal including Oka.

They claim proudly 'this is our land' but it turns out the Mohawks actuall came from further south and wiped out the Abenaki and Adironndack tribes to claim the land as 'theirs'

My attidute turned to one of ... you took it from them and unfortunately we took it from you ... fair's fair.

Time to move on.
__________________
Beemers Past and Present: 74 R90S, 77 R100RS, 85 K100RS, 2x 87 K100RS, 96 R1100GS (getting hacked), 99 R1100S, 2002 R1150GS, 2005 F650 Dakar
Plus the occasional Triumph, BSA, Yamaha, Honda, Suzuki and KTM but who's counting
Dan Alexander is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2013, 05:27 PM   #42
aquadog
Dude Buddha
 
Joined: Feb 2007
Location: Yukon
Oddometer: 654
Quote:
Originally Posted by AKDuc View Post
Here's an interview with the very lovely First Nations activist and attorney Pamela Palmater:

She states that ultimately the goal of the movement is the protection of Canada's lands and waters. Now that sounds like something I can get behind. And for that reason I put on some Native duds and went downtown to show my support and concern for "The Great White North."

Me and my cousin Marcella. Her BIL in Vancouver BC made the Raven drum I'm holding. I haven't studded up the KLR yet this winter so I rode my Fatback instead.
A local tv channel shot our little gathering: http://www.ktva.com/home/top-stories...186559681.html They flash by us at about 1:40 and if you listen carefully you can hear me beating my drum near the end of the segment at around 1:58. Warmest regards from farther north, Mark H.
Hi, Mark.

Don't be taken in by the loveliness...or the supposed protection aspect, kind of thrown in for effect. Let's consider what she said:

The meeting was between elected, representative aboriginal leaders and the leader of the country's government, but it was a failure because it wasn't between ALL native leaders (each band?!?), the federal government and the Governor General of Canada - you may not know, but the Governor General is a ceremonial position, which is kept around because we kind of like the Queen, but has no authority or much relevance at all. Shows up at parties. Not sure why they keep wanting the GG. Tradition, I guess.

She states that aboriginal groups across the country are all different, have different concerns...so if Harper were to meet with all of them, how does anything get done, and in what time frame? Fifty years? Pretty silly. Most of the tone of this thread is, yeah, we're onside with helping, but you have to boil it down to something that can be dealt with. Then tell your leaders. Then we can get it done.

She's unhappy that "nothing came of the meeting" because there weren't instant, tangible results. Like what? What expectations? Dumping money on the problem hasn't helped - and there are the problems mentioned, housing, water, education - but enough has been spent that they should have been resolved long since if the recipients of the money had used it for those purposes. See my earlier post regarding what happened in Kaschewan re: water.

Very misleading, using the old threat that "the land will be sold to foreigners", i.e. current fear is the Chinese. Please. Not happening, and Harper made that clear. The last oil sands deal was one time, already in the works. The bogey man that bands will sell off reserve land is nonsense. The proposal is that they can lease to make revenue (as many successful bands do), but not sell. The problem is, if you refuse to move from the shores of James Bay nobody wants to lease (or buy) that land!

She decries that this meeting will lead to more meetings, not action. Hey, that's how government works. How almost any transaction works. What does she think/want the government to do, since Idle hasn't stated any objectives except "fix our treaties". Maybe that's the part where the GG waves a wand.

A lot of this is illustrating FN disatisfaction with their own leadership, who they put in power. Some, like Atleo, seem pretty common sense. He'll be gone soon.....

Cute. Either not much in there, she's building a career, or she is just stirring the pot unproductively.

At least you're where it's warm enough to ride. We had a record of +10.9, heading back to -30, it's a bit of an icy mess out there. And a snowfall warning now in effect! Only 2.5 months of winter left...
aquadog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2013, 04:57 AM   #43
RobbieO
Muskokatard
 
RobbieO's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2007
Location: Dumpmere - Muskoka
Oddometer: 7,682
I'm sorry but I don't have time to read this..........

As a self employed contractor, I have to go to WORK to pay for my food, water, livelihood and my TAXES.

No one is giving me "handouts" to live.
I had to pick up my life and MOVE to better my income...............
__________________
I'm adorable........and I smell nice!
RobbieO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2013, 05:51 AM   #44
G-Mac
Gnarly Adventurer
 
G-Mac's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2007
Location: Peterborough Ontario Canada
Oddometer: 365
Quote:
Originally Posted by yamalama View Post
The (white guy) ethnocentricity displayed within this thread is truly dismaying.
People living in abject squalor, and whitey worried about having his commute to work disrupted.
More or less.
The last thing I worry about is my commute to work. Because I work and pay for my ride and whitey blacky reddy or browny we all are responsible for our own well being other than those who can't and then we help them.......not Keep helping them to the point they become dependent. Like a bear who is fed, doesn't bother trying to hunt any more.
So your whitey doesn't give me hand outs anymore bullshit can suck it. TAKE RESPOSIBILITY FOR YOURSELF. The end result is we as in the Canadian people that work have paid enough!!
IMHO
__________________
G-Mac
Take the road of greatest resistance
2013 F800GS All Around Awesome Triple A
2002 XR250R Dirty Girl so fun to ride
1997 KLR 650 miss the old girl. Never washed!
G-Mac is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2013, 06:41 AM   #45
newhoco
stromnambulator
 
Joined: Sep 2010
Location: frozen north
Oddometer: 44
It is a horrible problem that must be overcome , we cannot allow a subset of our population to live in squalor and poverty .
A significant part of the problem would seem to be in trying to reconcile the concept of aboriginal peoples " living off the land " in remote parts of our vast country , and the access to modern goods and services that only a metropolis can provide .
The ancient model of inland tribes involved a nomadic lifestyle , moving with the herds , or seasons , giving rise to the notion of " stewardship of the land " , but actually it meant moving on when the resources of one area were depleted , ad infinitum . Of course , it also meant periodic famines , lower life expectancy ,child mortality ... all those things that Darwin would say are necessary mechanisms to promote survival of the fittest , and / or the checks and balances that keep all species in an ecosystem in equilibrium .
Our modern system requires that those nomadic peoples be locked in one place forever , so they may be provided with the kind of infrastructure previously only available in a city : flush toilets , requiring sewage treatment systems ; running water piped into every home , requiring water purification plants ; permanent housing , with heat and all modern conveniences ; medical centers , staffed and equipped as well as any such centre in Toronto or North Bay ; schools , expected to meet standards of any in urban centres....
History has proven that this is not a sustainable model , especially not if we also make every member of these communities a life-long welfare recipient , with no incentive to better their lot .
Another important aspect to consider , and not given any airtime , is the massive bureaucracy that is IANA . Huge buildings , staffed with legions of self serving drones who benefit from the current system , indeed they created the system for their own benefit . Indeed , I would wager that there are more " whites" overseeing the system , than there are aboriginals , and those " whites " enjoy a far higher standard of living than not only the aboriginal peoples , but also the average Canadian taxpayer . The massive cost of this bureaucracy is never included in the calculation of the amount expended on the individual bands - a taxpayer revolt would ensue.
A way forward ? I believe only assimilation will work . Just as we have thriving Sikh , or Hindu , or Filipino , or Italian individuals and communities throughout our nation , so should we have Aboriginal peoples , in our schools and workplaces , improving our multi-cultural society with their presence . Just as every other Hyphenated - Canadian ,
they should own property , vote , pay taxes , keep their cultural traditions alive , return to their ancestral lands as often as they can afford to , in short - to be Canadian citizens .
newhoco is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 03:23 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014