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Old 01-16-2013, 06:51 PM   #72901
Carl Childers
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinkerinWstuff View Post
here's mine



before - mine wasn't as ugly as some I've seen


Thanks! Mine was even more restricted than your before shot. Judging by your after picture I think I'll stop where I'm at I've got it cleaned out to that point but don't want to weaken the joint.
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Old 01-16-2013, 08:20 PM   #72902
motolab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by procycle View Post
You keep saying how much better the OEM needle will work with an open airbox than the DynoJet needle. But you have no hands on experience tuning a DR650 with an open airbox.
Correct. And although it would be nice, I don't need it in order to know the trends.
Quote:
The problem with the OEM needle and open airbox is that the needle will have to be raised about 4-6mm to have any hope of running well enough to make the bike rideable in the mid-range.
Are you saying that you tried a non-USA oem needle and raised it to its highest position by installing the clip in the lowest groove, and found the mixture to be too lean at 1/4 opening? If so, that's likely because the main jet was still too small. If the word mid-range does not mean 1/4 opening in this context, please clarify what it does mean. If you experimented with a USA needle instead of a non-USA needle, what method did you use to raise the needle?
Quote:
Raising the needle that much causes the beginning of the taper to rise out of the needle jet way too early causing a low end bog.
Again, if the correct size main jet is installed, the needle should not need to be raised much at all in order to achieve the correct mixture at 1/4 opening. You are right in that there is a definite tendency for certain rpm to become overly rich as a result of attempting to jet a CV carb for a modified airbox (the more it is modified, the stronger this tendency becomes). However it is the low to to low-mid rpm range that this invariably affects, and it's not due to having to raise the needle inordinately, but simply because of the large jump in main jet size that is required to get the proper mixture at the higher rpm. Couple that with a worn out emulsion tube and/or the float height being too low, and there will definitely be problems.
Quote:
In the real world the only viable solution available is the DynoJet needle.
I used to believe that needle shapes such as the DynoJet needle has would solve opened-up-air-box-with-main-jet-for-correct-higher-rpm-operation-induced low to mid-low rpm richness problems as well. In fact, my mind kept insisting that every instance where a needle shape like that didn't work had to be an anomaly, until it finally dawned on me that I had not ever seen one work, and that that leads to the inevitable conclusion that they don't work in general.
Quote:
I'd like to see you show that there are other options and I've even offered to foot the bill to give you that chance.
I'd obviously like that too, but with how uncivilized your last few responses have been, I'm not sure I would want to interact on that kind of a level.
Quote:
I'd also like to stop hearing about how much better OEM needle is until there is some proof to back it up.
We can easily turn that around. I have posted a chart with a CO trace that shows that the DynoJet needle doesn't work very well. You have not posted a chart with a CO trace that shows that the non-USA OEM needle doesn't work very well. Neither have you posted a chart with a CO trace that shows that the DynoJet needle does work well.

Regards,

Derek
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Old 01-16-2013, 10:02 PM   #72903
Chill
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I want to do something about the brakes on my bike. I don't feel that they are woefully inadequate, more that they could do with sharpening up a bit. The bike's only 4 years old but the brake fluid has never been changed (manual says should be every 2 years) and the fluid is quite dark which I understand is due to heat cycling/moisture absorption and not a great sign.

So I'm thinking to change the fluid and while I'm at it upgrade to braided lines. If I go for new pads at the same time, what is the general consensus on this? Are OEM pads considered the best as seems to be the case often with bike parts or are EBC or after-market ones better? Will this give me the sharpening up that I'm looking for?
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Old 01-16-2013, 10:17 PM   #72904
procycle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motolab View Post
...how uncivilized...
...chart with a CO trace that shows that the DynoJet needle does work well...
I don't know how you think I've been uncivilized. I mean really, we haven't even gotten down to shouting, name calling or even excessive exclamation points. Maybe it's just because we disagree. Anyway, I have no animosity directed at you.

A bunch of posts back neo1piv014 said he has an adjustable OEM needle and a modified airbox and hopes to end up with a good running bike. My best advice to him would be to not waste his time. Maybe with your guidance he can end up with a good result. I'll be very interested in seeing what happens. I don't mind being wrong if it means learning something new.

We have different criteria for tuning. I'm really only interested in the end result. A bike should start easily, warm up in a reasonable amount of time (but not too quickly), have a stable idle, good throttle response, rev out cleanly, make the most top end power it can, not exhibit any hiccups, hesitations or bogging and get good fuel economy. If the jetting setup does all this it doesn't matter if the CO trace is flat, wavy, zigzag or loop-de-loop. If it runs within a certain range it won't cause any drivability problems and that's perfectly fine for bikes like the DR650 that will never be used as competitive race bikes. The DJ needle is far from ideal but it can be set up to satisfy all these criteria. There are thousands of DR650s out in the world that prove this is true. I don't have to look at a CO trace to be convinced. And I'll say again, the DJ needle best choice available until somebody comes up with something that actually works better.
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Old 01-16-2013, 10:49 PM   #72905
LucasLeader
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chill View Post
I want to do something about the brakes on my bike. I don't feel that they are woefully inadequate, more that they could do with sharpening up a bit. The bike's only 4 years old but the brake fluid has never been changed (manual says should be every 2 years) and the fluid is quite dark which I understand is due to heat cycling/moisture absorption and not a great sign.

So I'm thinking to change the fluid and while I'm at it upgrade to braided lines. If I go for new pads at the same time, what is the general consensus on this? Are OEM pads considered the best as seems to be the case often with bike parts or are EBC or after-market ones better? Will this give me the sharpening up that I'm looking for?
As far as brake pads just don't get the Neutron brand that rockymountain sells. I put them on the rear and they were noticeably worse than the EBCs. I like the EBC Carbon X. I have them on one and a half of my bikes and they work great. http://www.ebcbrakes.com/motorcycle_...ds/index.shtml

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Old 01-16-2013, 11:31 PM   #72906
Adv Grifter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chill View Post
I want to do something about the brakes on my bike. I don't feel that they are woefully inadequate, more that they could do with sharpening up a bit. The bike's only 4 years old but the brake fluid has never been changed (manual says should be every 2 years) and the fluid is quite dark which I understand is due to heat cycling/moisture absorption and not a great sign.

So I'm thinking to change the fluid and while I'm at it upgrade to braided lines. If I go for new pads at the same time, what is the general consensus on this? Are OEM pads considered the best as seems to be the case often with bike parts or are EBC or after-market ones better? Will this give me the sharpening up that I'm looking for?
New fluid is essential ... especially if you work your brakes hard in hot weather. I flush out old fluid for new about twice a year. Brake fluid absorbs moisture. Once every two years is NOT enough ... do it AT LEAST once a year.

Pads
You'll get different input on this.
After I wore out the original Nissin stock brake pads I did what most everyone else does; I went with EBC sintered HH pads. (their best race pads) Cheaper than Nissin.
I've run 2 sets of EBC fronts and 3 out back. At first I thought the EBC pads were OK ... but over time ... my braking was really not good. The EBC front pads were a bit worn, perhaps they were glazed? For laughs I swapped back in an old Nissin OEM set (quite worn but usable) back into the front brake. WOW! What a difference!

Braking was instantly 20% better. I hunted around on line and found OEM Nissin HH pads for not much more than EBC pads. I'll never go back to EBC until they improve their HH sintered pads. BTW, I de-glazed my EBC pads ... not much improvement ... Nissin still much stronger.

For more real world serious braking you could look into fitting a different caliper, bigger disc and different master cylinder. ALL these upgrades will transform braking power. It CAN be done.

PS: if your pads have ever been oil soaked ... then this could also be a problem and reason for Glazed pads. Fresh, clean pads essential.
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Old 01-16-2013, 11:31 PM   #72907
motolab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by procycle View Post
I don't know how you think I've been uncivilized. I mean really, we haven't even gotten down to shouting, name calling or even excessive exclamation points. Maybe it's just because we disagree.
I would never consider directing a phrase such as "put up or shut up" at anyone in a forum. I would not consider telling someone to stop posting about a particular subject matter either (unless it was off topic, in which case I would make a polite request).
Quote:
A bunch of posts back neo1piv014 said he has an adjustable OEM needle and a modified airbox and hopes to end up with a good running bike. My best advice to him would be to not waste his time.
As you already know, my best advice for him is not to waste his time with the DJ needle.
Quote:
Maybe with your guidance he can end up with a good result.
I don't think he'll need much, but if he does, I'll be available.
Quote:
I don't mind being wrong if it means learning something new.
I'm glad to hear that.
Quote:
We have different criteria for tuning.
I suppose you must be right about that.
Quote:
I'm really only interested in the end result.
As am I.
Quote:
A bike should start easily, warm up in a reasonable amount of time (but not too quickly), have a stable idle, good throttle response, rev out cleanly, make the most top end power it can, not exhibit any hiccups, hesitations or bogging and get good fuel economy. If the jetting setup does all this it doesn't matter if the CO trace is flat, wavy, zigzag or loop-de-loop.
Unfortunately the shape of the CO trace indicates whether the criteria you set forth are being met or not.
Quote:
If it runs within a certain range it won't cause any drivability problems and that's perfectly fine for bikes like the DR650 that will never be used as competitive race bikes.
You left out that it should not be lean enough anywhere to cause detonation, and not be rich enough anywhere to cause excessive carbon deposits or wash the oil off of the cylinder wall.
Quote:
The DJ needle is far from ideal but it can be set up to satisfy all these criteria.
As the CO trace in the chart I posted shows, it will certainly not meet the not-be-lean-enough-anywhere-to-cause-detonation, and not-be rich-enough-anywhere-to-cause-excessive-carbon-deposits criteria. It may not meet the not washing the oil off of the cylinder wall criterion either.
Quote:
There are thousands of DR650s out in the world that prove this is true.
That they are out there with a DJ needle installed proves nothing more than the fact that there are DR650s with DJ needles installed.
Quote:
I don't have to look at a CO trace to be convinced.
Interesting how I need to prove matters but you don't. In fact it seems that you don't have to answer any questions I ask you, or clarify anything I inquire about.
Quote:
And I'll say again, the DJ needle best choice available until somebody comes up with something that actually works better.
That's already been done. Don't forget that needle shapes such as the DJ's exacerbate the very phenomena you claim they mitigate.

Regards,

Derek

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Old 01-17-2013, 12:10 AM   #72908
heirhead
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How bout those Lakers?

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Old 01-17-2013, 12:40 AM   #72909
Magnum Noel
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Dear Procycle and motolab. I have a dyno jet needle and main jet with an opened air box and my bike runs like a charm with no detramental side affects that I can detect, Runs way better than it did in its standard configuration.
Just my two bobs worth.

regards Noel
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Old 01-17-2013, 12:49 AM   #72910
Chill
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Thanks for the braking info LucasLeader and Adv Grifter. I think I'll start with new fluid, braided lines and new pads and take it from there. I'm not looking for huge gains, just a bit more bite and feel after a few "moments" commuting.

Thanks.
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Old 01-17-2013, 01:07 AM   #72911
NordieBoy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Childers View Post
Thanks! Mine was even more restricted than your before shot. Judging by your after picture I think I'll stop where I'm at I've got it cleaned out to that point but don't want to weaken the joint.
Mine cracked from a mis-aligned mid-pipe but not near the weld...


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Old 01-17-2013, 05:23 AM   #72912
Anklyne
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Location: Perth, Western Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motolab View Post
How many miles are there on the carburetor? Was the bike ever parked for an extended period?

Regards,

Derek
25,000Km (~15,500 miles). Not sure really. It's had 2 previous owners that I know of and the guy I bought it off said he mainly ended up using it for trips down to the shops (he was in a rural area so it was a decent ride).

Probably is a damn good idea I give the internals a check I guess...
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Old 01-17-2013, 08:18 AM   #72913
TinkerinWstuff
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There's another DR thread for folks who are extra sensitive

How is it I can sit at a bar with a guy, have a heated debate, tell eachother "awe bullschmitty and flippover" then buy each other beers talking about the hottie that just walked in the door all without any hard feelings?

But on the interwebz forum, folks get their mangina all dry and chaffed.

Relax already!
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Old 01-17-2013, 08:45 AM   #72914
neo1piv014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinkerinWstuff View Post
New topic anyone?

Is that the 790 kit or the high compression piston?


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Old 01-17-2013, 08:59 AM   #72915
TinkerinWstuff
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neo1piv014 View Post
Is that the 790 kit or the high compression piston?


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standard bore high comp
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