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Old 01-15-2013, 07:52 AM   #196
DAKEZ
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For normal spirited riding I don't think about counter-steering but when I am out riding and happen to be riding in a more spirited fashion than normal... I consciously think about counter-steering and being smooth. I find it helps to be consciously doing it when I come upon areas where traction may be briefly compromised.

I ended 2012 with what turned out to be a great ride! It was cold. It was wet... But I had three "pace cars" to lead the way so it turned out to be one of the top 5 rides I can recall. Even with my Pilot II's there were several times (fractions of a second) where momentary loss of traction came into play. Being conscious of my counter-steer when it happened seemed to help.


Perhaps a racer, retired racer or someone that tests the limits more often could chime in on this.
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Old 01-15-2013, 01:38 PM   #197
Al Goodwin
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I NEVER consciously think about.....it just happens.

I've been tidings since age 9, I'm 48 now. Hare-scrambles, 24 hour off-road endurance races, 11 years of road racing, and 100s of thousands of miles on the street.....counter-steering NEVER crosses my mind, It's just the way It's done.

I have no idea why/how this subject continues to be discussed time, and time, and time again. Of you ride a motorcycle, and you go into , and out of a curve...you ARE countersteering to initiate the turn.

All it should take is a couple of rides to figure this out. Go ride a very heavy steering bike, Harley XR1200 is a good one. Then a very light/neutral steering bike, maybe a motard/sort-bike....the difference will be astonishing. From having to hold the bike over into a corner, the XR1200, to having do nothing once you're set into the corner.
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Old 01-15-2013, 07:02 PM   #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Goodwin View Post
I NEVER consciously think about.....it just happens.

I've been tidings since age 9, I'm 48 now. Hare-scrambles, 24 hour off-road endurance races, 11 years of road racing, and 100s of thousands of miles on the street.....counter-steering NEVER crosses my mind, It's just the way It's done.

I have no idea why/how this subject continues to be discussed time, and time, and time again. Of you ride a motorcycle, and you go into , and out of a curve...you ARE countersteering to initiate the turn.

All it should take is a couple of rides to figure this out. Go ride a very heavy steering bike, Harley XR1200 is a good one. Then a very light/neutral steering bike, maybe a motard/sort-bike....the difference will be astonishing. From having to hold the bike over into a corner, the XR1200, to having do nothing once you're set into the corner.
+1 I've been riding motocross since age 9 as well and soon to be 26 now. I didn't think about counter-steering at all either until I first rode a sportbike at 21. I never gave a thought at all to how I made the motorcycle change lean angle. On a dirtbike the steering is so light you don't have any sensation of actually counter-steering. Once I threw a sportbike into a few turns it was incredibly obvious that you had to counter-steer to initiate a turn or change lean angle at all. After finding that out, understanding how it works did help my riding a little.

I think its discussed to much simply because people have a hard time understanding why it works and some people make it way over complicated. Things like "it only works over 5mph, its because of gyroscopic procession, it changes the center of gravity, but I can steer with my feet so the motorcycle isn't counter-steering thus you don't need to counter-steer, you counter-steer all the way through the corner, blah blah blah blah blah" ect. It makes it really hard for people trying to figure it out by listening to all of that crap and most of its wrong information. Even with the right information its hard to wrap your head around turning the WRONG way to go the direction you want to.

You have to think about what your doing to learn it. Once its learned it can be second nature in normal riding conditions. To make sure you still react correctly in stressful situations you've gotta train in stressful situations. Slightly pushing your limits just nudging your comfort zone at a track day or off-road is the only way to make sure can handle the extremes of riding when the shit hits the fan. That goes for more than just counter-steering. I guess you could push your limits on the street, but its usually not a good idea.
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Old 01-15-2013, 07:04 PM   #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fajita Dave View Post
I don't argue that everyone needs to find their own way of making proper riding technique stick in there brain no matter how nervous or surprised they get. However, usually survival instincts on a motorcycle cause you to turn right when you want to go right or grab a hand full of brake when you need to get on the throttle!

Practice does more for your riding than thinking ever will but, you've gotta think about what your practicing to know whether or not what your practicing is correct. Understanding the physics behind it helped me a lot but you definitely don't need to. You do need to know what your doing however before you can create those correct survival instincts on a motorcycle.
Yay! +1!

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Originally Posted by farmerstu View Post
perhaps if you think of other things that require similar thinking , the process may make more sense to some.for instance:typing, you don't instinctively know where the keys are. they are painstakingly learned and after a while it does not require brain activity to type.
heavy equipment operator: think running a full swing or a crane comes naturally?. to start you have to think .this lever booms out, this lever rolls the bucket etc. it is a slow process, do it long enough and wala it becomes automatic. brain is not in the equation any more , all eyes and hands and feet.
to think riding a motorcycle is any different is just, well ignorant.
as a side note if you want a laugh,go up to a fullswing operator on their machine, point out a lever,than ask him(or her) what it does. most of the time they have to think for several seconds before they can answer. think about why that is and how it relates to properly learning to ride.
This, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Goodwin View Post
I NEVER consciously think about.....it just happens.

I've been tidings since age 9, I'm 48 now. Hare-scrambles, 24 hour off-road endurance races, 11 years of road racing, and 100s of thousands of miles on the street.....counter-steering NEVER crosses my mind, It's just the way It's done.

I have no idea why/how this subject continues to be discussed time, and time, and time again. Of you ride a motorcycle, and you go into , and out of a curve...you ARE countersteering to initiate the turn.

All it should take is a couple of rides to figure this out. Go ride a very heavy steering bike, Harley XR1200 is a good one. Then a very light/neutral steering bike, maybe a motard/sort-bike....the difference will be astonishing. From having to hold the bike over into a corner, the XR1200, to having do nothing once you're set into the corner.
Yes, all it SHOULD take is a couple of rides, but you can very clearly see that there are an awful lot of people who have taken more than a couple of rides, and still have no clue whatsoever. And THAT's why it continues to be discussed.

PhilB
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PhilB screwed with this post 01-15-2013 at 07:12 PM
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Old 01-16-2013, 01:48 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by Jim Moore View Post
The world must come at you at in a terrifying blur. "OMG, A CURVE! OK, don't think, don't think! What do I do?! Don't think! Just hope it works out. Woah, I made it, thank God. OMG! ANOTHER ONE! What do I do?!" And on and on.
The world does not com at me at a blur. Point is, a curve shows up, I take it (and smile!). I don't think about how I countersteer, etd. I take it. I don't think "OMG< How much do I countersteer? Will I make it if I pull on the right or push on the left or both? OMG there's another going the other direction! Do I start to counterseer when the bike is leand or straight? OMG!"

I just take it. In an emergency there's the milisecond of do I steer around or stop or both, then execution. No time for thinking.
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Old 01-16-2013, 02:12 PM   #201
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Originally Posted by hippiebrian View Post
The world does not com at me at a blur. Point is, a curve shows up, I take it (and smile!). I don't think about how I countersteer, etd. I take it. I don't think "OMG< How much do I countersteer? Will I make it if I pull on the right or push on the left or both? OMG there's another going the other direction! Do I start to counterseer when the bike is leand or straight? OMG!"

I just take it. In an emergency there's the milisecond of do I steer around or stop or both, then execution. No time for thinking.
Slow look press and roll is what is taught in the MSF. Not take it.
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Old 01-16-2013, 03:24 PM   #202
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In a car I negotiate a curve or turn
On a bike its more like execute.

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Old 01-16-2013, 03:31 PM   #203
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Slow look press and roll is what is taught in the MSF. Not take it.
There's quite a lot that's not taught in the basic, intermediate, and experienced rider's courses.
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Old 01-16-2013, 04:06 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by Boon Booni View Post
There's quite a lot that's not taught in the basic, intermediate, and experienced rider's courses.
So where does one go to learn how to "take it"?


... nevermind, I don't think I want to know.
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Old 01-16-2013, 04:24 PM   #205
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So where does one go to learn how to "take it"?


... nevermind, I don't think I want to know.
Ride more. Think less. Repeat.
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Old 01-17-2013, 12:48 PM   #206
Jim Moore
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Originally Posted by hippiebrian View Post
I just take it. In an emergency there's the milisecond of do I steer around or stop or both, then execution. No time for thinking.
Like a ninja!
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Old 01-17-2013, 03:25 PM   #207
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Ride more. Think less. Repeat.
Why doesn't the MSF teach the take it method?
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Old 01-19-2013, 05:33 AM   #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
This is not to be until Tuesday.

You are already countersteering if you are turning a bike or motorcycle. (they do not turn otherwise)

It is nice to know the mechanics of it however... And to practice those mechanics.

Look Left Push left Go Left
Look Right Push Right Go Right
Look through the turn. Look through the turn. LOOK THROUGH THE TURN.


The end.
Obviously knowing the mechanics didn't help much in this case.

I never thought about or conciously tried to use countersteering until my brother brought it up to me related to bicycles. The old "try to go left by turning left" routine. Interesting. Then I completely let it all go out of my mind. You see, I had done fine riding bicycles and then motorcycles for the previous roughly 15 years (motorcycles for the previous 7). I had done okay riding my trials bike, flat tracker, and then motocrosser so I didn't really see much use in screwing with what was already well lubed and working fine.

That is what the OP should do - forget all the "science and mechanics" and go about with what they obviously learned with bicycling. Single track is single track, the physics are the same, just a lighter vehicle with skinnier tires.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
Look Left Push left Go Left
Look Right Push Right Go Right
Look through the turn. Look through the turn. LOOK THROUGH THE TURN.
.
That is my biggest issue with all the countersteering crap. Simply learn what happens then go practice a bit to ingrain it to one's skills. Let the physics and all go by the wayside when riding. I have yet to see any discussion clearly lay out all of the variables since there are probably hundreds, based on geometry (not just steering, but tires and all) and actual physics like laws of motion and such. It just gets freaking stupid. Arguements for those who "know" and confusion for those who are new.

If you have to actually conciously think about countersteering when riding, you are either a very VERY new rider or you have a serious problem you need to remedy through practicing steering until you DON'T have to think about it in a concious fashion. It is all about having the actions and reactions occur instinctively.

OP, forget the science and ride.
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Old 01-19-2013, 09:31 AM   #209
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The biggest deal to me is people knowing that they push left to go left, push right to go right.
After that it is your choice how conscious you keep it in your everyday riding.

Against the "just ride" argument are the cases where people have been getting by for many years with steering by "leaning I that direction" (causing them to push-steer without knowing it). That works right up until the time that you need to maneuver really drastically. No amount of leaning is going to save you then.
THAT is when you need to know that you push hard to go in that direction.
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Old 01-19-2013, 10:17 AM   #210
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Thinking or instinct.....

During my investigation of many motorcycle crashes, the part of countersteering that I've noticed is that if you don't CONSCIOUSLY think about how to turn, in an emergency situation, your reactive brain will tell your muscles to do something to avoid death or injury. What it will tell most people is to steer the front wheel the way you want to go. Fully 75% of the crashes I've looked at where "lost control / went wide" resulted from the rider causing the bike to go the wrong direction while trying to turn or swerve which resulted in the crash.
The biggest issue with just 'riding like you know how' without the brain training (you training your own brain) is it usually results in causing the crash which is trying to be avoided. I've even investigated crashes where the bikes skid marks (braking errors too) went from their proper lane into the oncoming lane simply because they tried to steer when they swerved. Not stupid, but very ignorant of how the brain works under stress.
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