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Old 01-19-2013, 05:41 PM   #61
Hardware02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Alexander View Post
This has bothered me since the Mohawk protests and bridge blocking in and around Montreal including Oka.

They claim proudly 'this is our land' but it turns out the Mohawks actuall came from further south and wiped out the Abenaki and Adironndack tribes to claim the land as 'theirs'

My attidute turned to one of ... you took it from them and unfortunately we took it from you ... fair's fair.

Time to move on.
Throw in that many tribes were completely nomadic (for good reason) so how do you want to narrow down where "your land" is?
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Old 01-19-2013, 06:19 PM   #62
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Simple, you have multiple overlapping land claims where at least 2 bands (and often more) claim the same territory. Each tries to claim the land that has the most potential resource value, and, giving credit, most claim a few sites of traditional value. Then that mess gets brought to the negotiating table, and people wonder why land claims take so long.

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We've taken the only thing of value the FN had, the land, and when we decided to literally stop killing them after a few centuries, we spend the next couple of centuries trying to annihilate their culture.
Not sure what part of Canada this experience happened in. I don't recall "Indian Wars" like they had in the U.S., nor deliberate murder of natives, aside from what disease did. As to culture, sure the residential school assimilation (culture) was rough, now being made up for with several programs to preserve aboriginal language, etc.

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main problem? racism....
when you see someone who is native what do you think about that person....?
I think they're a neighbour, and if they're broken down on the highway, or out of gas, I stop and help. This may be different here, as the Yukon had almost no reserves, and everybody lives together to a great extent. Watch your own prejudice there....and if you think bigotry is a one-way street, that's just wrong.
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Old 01-19-2013, 06:22 PM   #63
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Hey, can we send all the Newfies back to the Rock? Kidding, just kidding. But a prime example of people who move when they have to in order to work, and when conditions back home improve, often move back.
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Old 01-19-2013, 07:08 PM   #64
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This is the "why" of Idle No More

"Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will. Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them, and these will continue till they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress. " - Frederick Douglass - Aug 3, 1857
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Old 01-19-2013, 07:30 PM   #65
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My ancesstors were in north america 900+ years ago......

I must be Native right.

what do I get????
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Old 01-19-2013, 11:34 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Aces & Eights View Post
My ancesstors were in north america 900+ years ago......

I must be Native right.

what do I get????

...a bill,... for littering up 'n down the coasts of Newfoundland & Labrador with your open-pit fires and stinky lutefisk.

Now stop your whineing, and pull on that oar!
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Old 01-20-2013, 02:22 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Brunssd View Post
"Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will. Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them, and these will continue till they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress. " - Frederick Douglass - Aug 3, 1857
Good one. However, one of the key phrases is "without a demand", and so far we - as in what the public hears - haven't heard any actual demands or goals, other than "whhhaaaa - meet with each and every one of the Chiefs". Idle needs to do some strategic thinking and have a goal, some objectives, etc. - none of which is apparent yet, much like Occupy had no aim, thus dissipated. It's not enough to be unhappy with your situation (particularly if you are, to a good extent, bearing responsibility for same), you have to have some idea how to get out of it.
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Old 01-20-2013, 03:22 PM   #68
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Enough "Idling" around, time to get a move on!!! Soon as the media moves this to page two in paper... It will slowly die out and things will go back to the way they were !!!
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Old 01-20-2013, 03:42 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by aquadog View Post
Good one. However, one of the key phrases is "without a demand", and so far we - as in what the public hears - haven't heard any actual demands or goals, other than "whhhaaaa - meet with each and every one of the Chiefs". Idle needs to do some strategic thinking and have a goal, some objectives, etc. - none of which is apparent yet, much like Occupy had no aim, thus dissipated. It's not enough to be unhappy with your situation (particularly if you are, to a good extent, bearing responsibility for same), you have to have some idea how to get out of it.
Everything I read about Idle No More from the principals involved says it is about stopping Bill C-45 and the further destruction of the environment (both ours and theirs) by resource extraction companies. Everything I read about it in the mainstream press says exactly what you are saying, e.g. confused, no goals, etc. Same thing they did in the States to the Occupy Wall Street movement to try and discredit it. Same shit, different day.
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Old 01-20-2013, 05:22 PM   #70
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Yes, that is one - and only one - of the things that the variety pack of spokespersons are saying, and it may be true. However, bill C-45 is the one that alters the Criminal Code, so I'm not sure what the reference is to. ?? http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/legisl/billc45.html

You may be thinking of C-38, which is the omnibus bill. The fact that the correct bill number isn't known in the general public is indicative of the confusion over this, well reflected in the confusion coming from the Idle No More protesters. Bet you picked up the bill number from some of their coverage?

C-38 replaces the Navigable Waters Act, which is archaic, with the Navigation Protection Act, and does a bunch of other things. For example, it officially repeals our involvement in the Kyoto Accord, which nobody was living up to anyway, and was outdated. So who cares, other than as a talking point? The number of waterways covered is reduced - not every little stream or pond is included - and so on.

One important thing C-38 does (depending which side of the table you're on) is put timelines on approvals. It doesn't say yea or nay, but no more 20 years of studies, 20 years of consultation, oh, it's all out of date, start again. It does give perhaps too much power to cabinet for decisions/exemptions, but it also significantly increases penalties for environmental damage.

The environmental provisions in C-38 seem designed to speed up the process, whatever the end result may be. If you rely on the economy for a job, use resources, like your food transported to your town...having some timeliness is not a bad thing. For industry, it gives a timeline. We just had the Alaska Pipeline guys close up shop here after keeping an office going for ? maybe 20 years. You have to be fair to the guys that work to provide us with goods, if you're a consumer. Sometimes all industry wants is to know when, not "sometime". For them, even a negative result in a defined time frame can be better than a positive answer that comes way too late, and after considerable cost.

I guess I'm not too concerned, as most provinces and territories have their own environmental regulations in place, the stringency varying from place to place. In the Yukon, we have YESAB - Yukon Environmental and Socio-economic Asssessment Board. Which occasionally gets overidden by the Territorial Cabinet, but seems pretty thorough - although, granted, it will never please the far left of the far left, the BANANA crowd.
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Old 01-20-2013, 05:45 PM   #71
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This bill C-45. You check the date on your Bill C-45 link. It appears the confusion lies in places other than Idle No More.

http://www.mondaq.com/canada/x/20351...+Be+Overhauled
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Brunssd screwed with this post 01-20-2013 at 06:00 PM
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Old 01-20-2013, 06:19 PM   #72
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Good catch, you're right. But Idle No More isn't telling us what's wrong with C-38, just that it will 'gut environmental protection'. As it stands now, you theoretically need federal approval to put a little floating dock in your pond. Is that necessary? It's not like a company can go dumping tailings or mercury in the water, or that they don't need permitting and review. The Navigable Waters Act was in place when many waterways were important routes (therefore the name) and needed protection for navigation.

Broad brush statements sound good in a sound bite, but the devil is in the details, and we're not hearing specifics. Beware of scare tactics that don't tell you why you should be afraid. I don't like the degree of discretion the feds are taking, but per the previous post, there's lots of environmental protection in place these days that doesn't rely on an act from 1882.
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Old 01-20-2013, 06:41 PM   #73
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So the new standard is that Idle No More should put a legal brief on a placard? Should they open an office in Ottawa and hire lobbyists like the moneyed interests do before they are taken seriously?

Your habit of continually moving the goal posts is really quite tedious.
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Old 01-20-2013, 08:05 PM   #74
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I'm not sure what is wrong with telling people what you want, instead of complaining, which is mostly what we hear. And really broad statements, like ;Harper must meet with each band chief in Canada; (representing in many cases very few people) doesn't constitute that for me, sorry. No mention of a legal brief from me, and the general tone of this thread has been quite supportive of aboriginals, provided they a) tell us what they want, b) do their part. It's a shared responsibility.

I don't see how that moves a goal post, or is unreasonable. ??
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Old 01-20-2013, 08:26 PM   #75
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It's simple

They want a seat at the table. They are being denied - along with most of the rest of Canadians. Government of, by and for the resource extraction campaign contribution complex.
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