Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki & Kawasaki - Listen Up, Please...

[zxrider11]

Get a KTM 690 Enduro R today and enjoy great suspension, 62+ hp and 3,000 miles oil change intervals.

[JMo (& piglet)]

Don't wish too hard... it might just come true:

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=857243

OK, so it's not Japanese... but the quality ought to be there?

Jx

[Davidc83]

Originally Posted by NJ-Brett

They also have few mid sized street bikes for sale in the US.
The jump is a 250 to a few 650's I think.
There are a number of 250's, which are too small for the US speed limits and distances no matter how good the motor is, plus they tend to be very small in overall size.
The new Ninja 300 helps I suppose, where are the rest of the 300/350's?
What is the speed limit in Texas now, 85 mph?

I am sure all the manufacturers have a bunch of old proven engine designs around that just need the addition of FI and a cat to make them good, dr350 and dr650 motors, a drz 400 motor with a wide ratio trans.
Would it really cost them much to change a gear or two in the DRZ to get a wide ratio trans for the US?

You would think it would be easy to just stick a wide ratio drz 400 motor in a street bike as well, one motor, two bikes, a dual sport and a mid size sport bike?

Take the dr650 motor and make a TU650 out of it, and a light 650 sport bike.

So what do they do? They seem to come up with totally new designs for anything new they come up with.

In the past, Honda used the same basic motor in three bikes! The sl/cl/cb 350 comes to mind.

So what is wrong with using something like a drz motor in quads, street bikes, and dual sport bikes?
Would that not save a boat load of money?

I for one do not think the people in charge are always so smart.

The 85mph speed limit in Texas is only on ONE road and only for 40 miles or so (and it is a toll road). Most other interstate speed limits in the US is 70mph or lower. I have a klx250sf and at my 200lbs (5'11") I can do the speed limit on all these other interstates. I have ridden for hours and hours at 70mph on the little bike with no problem maintaining that speed (top speed is 80mph). It has 6 gears and I am looking for a 7th gear. Top gear is the top gear, no matter how many gears are between the lowest and tallest.
You cant just take a dr650motor and put it in a TU frame. The TU frame was designed and built for a 250 motor, not the weight of a 650 motor; they would have to redesign and build a typically different frame.
Honda may be getting in the act of mid-size dual sport bikes with the c500x (got to wait until they are on the market), and it should be around the $6000-$6500 range, FI, and I believe 6 speeds, just what the OP was asking for. But somebody on here will complain about it, for not having enough folk traver, not enough adjustable rear shock, etc.......

[mtntrails]

JMo! Thanks for your post. I'm a big fan.

That's the first I've seen of the CCM. As an adventure application, that looks great. The G450X was a competition bike a la KTM XC if i remember right (?). Do you suppose they will add oil capacity, a 6th gear and steel intake valves to the G450X motor to increase the service & maintenance intervals? That would be pretty cool.

[mtntrails]

Originally Posted by Cruz

Not one of the big 4, KTM are bringing out a 390 based on the new Duke but as an enduro/adv type bike soon.

http://www.autoevolution.com/news/ne...red-52577.html

No other than KTM's CEO Stefan Pierer seems to have confirmed the existence of such plans aiming to build two new versions of the 390 Duke: a fully-faired one and an enduro or touring model.

Yes, I'm really interested to see where KTM will take this. By all reports, the 390 Duke is a pretty capable bike. I can't wait to see what KTM has up their sleeve with a dualsport model.

[jon_l]

Originally Posted by JMo (& piglet)

Don't wish too hard... it might just come true:

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=857243

OK, so it's not Japanese... but the quality ought to be there?

Jx

That's a beauty. Looks $, but I guess we'll see.

Speaking only for myself, all I really want is a WR450R, or a 6-speed, EFI DR-Z. It doesn't need hard luggage, rally fairing, trick suspension, etc. Leave that to the accessories dept. and the aftermarket.

I would be thrilled with a long service intervals, ~35 HP with more torque than a 1/4 liter can provide, wide-ratio 6-speed tranny, decent left-over electrical power for accessories, 300 lbs wet, 36" seat height, $7,500, decent sub-frame for camping gear, in short a plain-old dual-sport with a little more beans. Not everyone is "ready to race"; I'm sure not.

This may be the only category in motorcycling that almost everyone agrees is virtually empty. Not everyone agrees on what spec machine should fill the void, but aftermarket can resolve some of the deficiencies from most people's wish-list, and if not, maybe KTM already has your bike. The 500 EXC looks amazing, but I'm not good enough to use it to it's potential, nor up to the $ commitment.

Seems like the first manufacturer to the party would sell enough to cover R&D before the other mfgrs caught up. I'd buy red, blue, yellow, or green; while I have some preferences, I am not brand loyal, and would buy from any of the big 4 Japanese mfgrs.

[NJ-Brett]

I was not thinking they should use the same frames.
The same motors could be used in quads, dual sports, street bikes of both the sport and vintage look.
All would have different frames, suspension, etc.

Having a 6 speed allows gearing a bike taller without hosing up 1st gear. A wide range 5 speed is ok on most bikes, but a 6th gear overdrive is nice for any thumper on the interstate.

I also do the interstate on my TU250, but into a head wind and/or up hills I might have a problem with 70 or 75 mph limits. Most people would not be happy doing a lot of interstate miles on a 250. I am not one of them, but I am not like the others.

Originally Posted by Davidc83

The 85mph speed limit in Texas is only on ONE road and only for 40 miles or so (and it is a toll road). Most other interstate speed limits in the US is 70mph or lower. I have a klx250sf and at my 200lbs (5'11") I can do the speed limit on all these other interstates. I have ridden for hours and hours at 70mph on the little bike with no problem maintaining that speed (top speed is 80mph). It has 6 gears and I am looking for a 7th gear. Top gear is the top gear, no matter how many gears are between the lowest and tallest.
You cant just take a dr650motor and put it in a TU frame. The TU frame was designed and built for a 250 motor, not the weight of a 650 motor; they would have to redesign and build a typically different frame.
Honda may be getting in the act of mid-size dual sport bikes with the c500x (got to wait until they are on the market), and it should be around the $6000-$6500 range, FI, and I believe 6 speeds, just what the OP was asking for. But somebody on here will complain about it, for not having enough folk traver, not enough adjustable rear shock, etc.......

[Gundy]

Count me as one who is sitting out the dual sport market until this mid sized DS comes along. Ive had amodified DRZ, modded WRR, klr685 etc,, and they all seem to just miss the sweet spot. The heavily modded WR was probably the closest to perfect, but needed just a liiitle bit more grunt....another 100cc would be ideal. By the time it was modded for power, it was too dang loud since the rpms had to be kept high. The current 350 offerings are all of the engine rebuild variety......whhhyyyyy?!


WR 3xx or 4xx or maybe suzuki could just make the DRZ FI and six speed....they are so close it hurts on that bike. Would it really be so hard to change a couple gear ratios and slap a throttle body in there, and fix that can chain tensioner while they are at it? Not asking too much IMO. in the meantime I'm doing the american bigger is better thing on my S10, which fits most of my riding pretty well. I am sure the corporate guys at the big 4 all are looking at the pressure put on riding areas and shaking their heads....why put more R&D into this type of bike when there is nowhere to ride?


And, while they are at it, spring the dang thing for a rider over 150 lbs. DS riders don't seem to miss many meals.....200 lbs should be the standard and al the lightweights can put softer springs in.

[Royal Tiger]

KTM, Husky, and Beta make 300-350's. Why does it have to be Japanese? So it'll be heavier and carburated?

[joexr]

Originally Posted by Royal Tiger

KTM, Husky, and Beta make 300-350's. Why does it have to be Japanese? So it'll be heavier and carburated?

Dealer network and parts availability , both OEM and aftermarket.

[mcjetter]

Honda is supposedly releasing a 500 dual sport/ light-weight adv bike later this year as a part of their 3 new 500cc bike models.

[OrangeYZ]

Originally Posted by mtntrails

35 - 45 RWHP
6-speed Tranny
Target Weight at or Under 300lbs
Modern, Fully Adjustable Suspension
A Subframe Capable of Carrying Luggage & Camping Gear
An Electrical System Capable of Running Heated Gear, GPS, etc.
Build it for Unquestionable Reliability & Durability
$5000 - $9000 MSRP (depending on displacement & specs)

I have that motorcycle, it's pretty sweet. Paid $4900 for it. Matches my Beavers shirts.

[RED CAT]

You are talking about the already existing twin 500X. More street than anything. We have them here in Canukstan.

[NJ-Brett]

I bet they would sell a boat load, many boat loads of drz400's with your upgrades.
They just do not get it, and if people think someone smart is running the company, the drz 400 will prove otherwise.

Originally Posted by Gundy

Count me as one who is sitting out the dual sport market until this mid sized DS comes along. Ive had amodified DRZ, modded WRR, klr685 etc,, and they all seem to just miss the sweet spot. The heavily modded WR was probably the closest to perfect, but needed just a liiitle bit more grunt....another 100cc would be ideal. By the time it was modded for power, it was too dang loud since the rpms had to be kept high. The current 350 offerings are all of the engine rebuild variety......whhhyyyyy?!


WR 3xx or 4xx or maybe suzuki could just make the DRZ FI and six speed....they are so close it hurts on that bike. Would it really be so hard to change a couple gear ratios and slap a throttle body in there, and fix that can chain tensioner while they are at it? Not asking too much IMO. in the meantime I'm doing the american bigger is better thing on my S10, which fits most of my riding pretty well. I am sure the corporate guys at the big 4 all are looking at the pressure put on riding areas and shaking their heads....why put more R&D into this type of bike when there is nowhere to ride?


And, while they are at it, spring the dang thing for a rider over 150 lbs. DS riders don't seem to miss many meals.....200 lbs should be the standard and al the lightweights can put softer springs in.

[Off the grid]

When I sold my XRR, I was looking for that "sweet spot" bike. If there was a Japanese offering, I would have considered it, I have no brand loyalty. But there isn't and won't be for these reasons:

The Big 4 will never, ever produce a dual sport bike that has:

E and kick start
40+hp, 500 +/- cc
Good suspension and brakes-stock (ie name brand)
FI (or a bulletproof carb like KTMs)
Decent ergos
Tank that holds 3.5g+
Under 275lbs dry
Factory street legal in all 50 states

It will never happen. Honda makes its money by producing hundreds of thousands of cheap, 100-175cc bikes to countries like India, China and Brazil. There are literally thousands of models of Hondas alone that Americans have no idea about....and no interest in. They are made to a specific price point and have to skimp on things like suspension and brakes to make them cheap. Does a man who lives in India with a 10 year old, 150cc Honda Tornado as his family vehicle give a shit if the ratio between first and second gear is too much of a jump? No, he could care less. Does he care if his shocks bottom out over every bump or rebound like the tits on a cheerleader? No, all he wants is the engine to start. Every day. So it does.

The same thought process is shown in their US offroad bikes. Cheap, unchanged, built to meet a price point.

Does the big 4 make a good engine? Sure, no one can debate that. But if you are looking for modern engineering or anything state-of-the art, look elsewhere.

If anything, pin your Japanese hopes on Yamaha for putting out a bike close to what I described above. At least they are innovating and taking chances with new designs and new models in the offroad market. (forward-canted engine, WR250R)