What kind of battery for adventuring, is Lithium up to the challenge?

[bross]

Sorry I don't know much about this either, but I replaced my R/R on my Honda CBF1000 after my stator fried, with the Compufire unit and it ran fine after that. Didn't get quite as many miles on the bike as the first stator so not sure if the Compufire totally fixed it or not but at least it didn't fry again while I owned it. Some CBF owners are on their third stator as well.

[Jeff B]

The other issue that puzzles that Joel mentioned is that the AC circuit from the stator to the R/R is not fused?

Can anyone explain to me why this is?

If there was a way to fuse these three wires, then maybe it could be a way to protect the stator from frying?

[WayneC1]

Joel was basically adding some small resistance into the circuit to reduce current and hence reduce the power output of the alternator as a stop gap measure to reduce temperature of the stator. This will not suit all people but without improvement to the cooling of the stator as per the BMW changes the failures will continue.

Fusing the stator output while a good protective measure against shorted wiring will do nothing to address the stator temperature problem

[Balsta]

I opened up a box with a new Shorai LFX18 for my KTM 990 today. It's my second Shorai and I wanted to make sure it's ok before firing up the bike. My (about 40 US$) voltmeter said 12.9 V out of the box (ambient room temp.). I charged it with Shorai's charger and it "beeped full and ready" at 14.05 volts after less than 10 minutes. When disconnecting the charger, the battery voltage drops to 13.85 after some couple of minutes and then stays there.

I repeated the charging a couple of times and it always tells "full" at between 14.0 and 14.05 volts. The store mode charging stops when my voltmeter indicates 13.0 volts.

I am suspicios on the condition of my new Shorai since 1) the Shorai charger stops at 14.05 volts while the table above in this thread tells 14.34 volts at 100 %. For comparison, my old (almost dead) Shorai reched only 13.3-13.4 volts at full charge with the Shorai charger. Is perhaps the new Shorai already on it's way downhill??!!

Second reason for my suspicion is the very short time it takes to fully charge the battery. I have not tried measuring the voltage of the individual cells as described early in this thread.

Would appreciate any comments and if I should return the battery to the dealer before firing up my KTM.

Tonight the Shorai charger is set on store mode in my garage (a couple of degrees above freezing) and I will repeat the charging to full by tomorrow, to find out if the final voltage differs at lower ambient temperature.

[_cy_]

Originally Posted by Balsta

I opened up a box with a new Shorai LFX18 for my KTM 990 today. It's my second Shorai and I wanted to make sure it's ok before firing up the bike. My (about 40 US$) voltmeter said 12.9 V out of the box (ambient room temp.). I charged it with Shorai's charger and it "beeped full and ready" at 14.05 volts after less than 10 minutes. When disconnecting the charger, the battery voltage drops to 13.85 after some couple of minutes and then stays there.

I repeated the charging a couple of times and it always tells "full" at between 14.0 and 14.05 volts. The store mode charging stops when my voltmeter indicates 13.0 volts.

I am suspicios on the condition of my new Shorai since 1) the Shorai charger stops at 14.05 volts while the table above in this thread tells 14.34 volts at 100 %. For comparison, my old (almost dead) Shorai reched only 13.3-13.4 volts at full charge with the Shorai charger. Is perhaps the new Shorai already on it's way downhill??!!

Second reason for my suspicion is the very short time it takes to fully charge the battery. I have not tried measuring the voltage of the individual cells as described early in this thread.

Would appreciate any comments and if I should return the battery to the dealer before firing up my KTM.

Tonight the Shorai charger is set on store mode in my garage (a couple of degrees above freezing) and I will repeat the charging to full by tomorrow, to find out if the final voltage differs at lower ambient temperature.

LiFePO4 batteries for motorcycle are made of four cells in series. discharge curve for LiFePO4 are very flat. a specific to LiFePO4 charge typically will charge to 14.6V (fully charged)

battery will then self discharge overnight to about 14.1v for batteries without BMS. it's normal for LiFePO4 batteries with BMS to self discharge to about 13.85V. very little power is contained within 14.6v to 13.85v.

your volt meter sounds like it's off... check with a known to be correct meter like Fluke 87V. it's ok to use cheap meter, but you must verify accuracy first. take any primary lithium battery to an HVAC supply. then ask to see a new Fluke 87V. tell them you are check accuracy of meter. if both meters read same you are good to go. voltage coming of out primary lithium batteries are fairly stable.

reason battery charger is kicking off early sure sounds like your Shorai battery is almost fully charged before sticking charger. notice almost entire discharge ranges about 1/2v difference. an accurate meter is a must!

IMHO LFX18 is way too small for your KTM 990, especially for adventure travel. the only LiFePO4 batteries I can recommend for an adventure bike are Earth-X ETX36 and Shorai LFX36. both have excellent cranking power with ample amp hour reserves.



Shorai LFX 36 after one year with excellent performance, next to Earth-X ETX36 just getting started and doing excellent.

[CheckerdD]

Is anyone else wondering about putting lithium batteries in a bike if they are starting fires on Boeing 787's? Dave

[Loutre]

Originally Posted by CheckerdD

Is anyone else wondering about putting lithium batteries in a bike if they are starting fires on Boeing 787's? Dave

We are ADV riders after all, didn't you read the "General terms of agreement" when you joined the community? We need to be badass all the time, otherwise the Harley riders will laugh at us.

[_cy_]

Originally Posted by CheckerdD

Is anyone else wondering about putting lithium batteries in a bike if they are starting fires on Boeing 787's? Dave

starting to see this exact line pop up all over ...

misinformation is caused by use of li-ion label. all motorcycle li-ion batteries are LiFePO4 or lithium iron phosphate, which are inherently safe and almost impossible to cause a fire... even after wild abuse.

VS lithium cobalt on 787 ... also call li-ion are inherently unsafe and need all sorts of safeties to keep from going into thermal runaway (explosion)

[ebrabaek]

Originally Posted by _cy_

starting to see this exact line pop up all over ...

misinformation is caused by use of li-ion label. all motorcycle li-ion batteries are LiFePO4 or lithium iron phosphate, which are inherently safe and almost impossible to cause a fire... even after wild abuse.

VS lithium cobalt on 787 ... also call li-ion are inherently unsafe and need all sorts of safeties to keep from going into thermal runaway (explosion)

I am too eye'ing this. I have seen one picture of a shorai, i think, that exploded. But I will agree with you on that they are safe.... (at least enough for me to put it on my bike). A few years back at a NBAA we attended, there were quite the stir on these, but very few, if memory serves me correct was LiCo...... All was LiPo. I cannot either understand why the first went into the 787. Give it a few years, and I think unless the Chinese dumps a whole lot more crap on the market, a really great solution will present itself.

[WayneC1]

Misinformation and confusion re the difference in Lithium battery types will occur unfortunately and some will become concerned. Beyond the Shorai pic's out there of the early faulty one's which overheated and caused minor damage to a couple of machines it would be possible for the heat generated in a failure to cause other components such as fibreglass to start smouldering. I am aware of one such situation with a LifePO lithium and the damage was considerable. It is one reason the 650GS single battery location is not so good in getting to it in an emergency situation

[_cy_]

Originally Posted by ebrabaek

I am too eye'ing this. I have seen one picture of a shorai, i think, that exploded. But I will agree with you on that they are safe.... (at least enough for me to put it on my bike). A few years back at a NBAA we attended, there were quite the stir on these, but very few, if memory serves me correct was LiCo...... All was LiPo. I cannot either understand why the first went into the 787. Give it a few years, and I think unless the Chinese dumps a whole lot more crap on the market, a really great solution will present itself.

early Shorai batteries had an internal short problem which has be fixed long ago. battery melted, but didn't go into thermal runaway (explosion) it's hard even with wild abuse to cause a fire with LiFePO4.

Originally Posted by WayneC1

Misinformation and confusion re the difference in Lithium battery types will occur unfortunately and some will become concerned. Beyond the Shorai pic's out there of the early faulty one's which overheated and caused minor damage to a couple of machines it would be possible for the heat generated in a failure to cause other components such as fibreglass to start smouldering. I am aware of one such situation with a LifePO lithium and the damage was considerable. It is one reason the 650GS single battery location is not so good in getting to it in an emergency situation

this is another issue that comes up ... LiFePO4 batteries are substantially smaller than OEM. probably making factory anchoring system not useable.

dead short dangers are very real .. lithium batteries discharge at extremely high rates ... easily generating heat equal to Arc welding. we all have heard about welding setting off fires.

then factor in folks that relocate batteries to completely different locations. don't lose your bike to a fire caused by dead short ... which are NOT the battery mfg's fault.

batteries with cable leads have the highest risk of dead shorts. due to lack of hard mounts. black electrical tape is not enough. insulate positive connectors with a piece of rubber hose slit sideways, then tape that down good.

make absolutely sure, battery cannot dead short out!!

[_cy_]

if shipping your Bike via airfreight, it's no longer legal to leave LiFePO4 battery in cargo hold.
based on DOT formula, it's legal to carry on largest size LiFePO4 available from Earth-X and Shoria

What is the Total Equivalent Lithium Content of My Battery?
figuring using DOT formula below

mAh/1000 x V = wh

Earth-X ETX24 = 6.3 actual amp hour
6.3 (actual AH) x 13.2 (nominal volt LiFePO4) = 83.16 watt hour

problems: TSA will look at ETX24 label as 24AH, instead of actual 6.3 AH measured
Yes most LiFePO4 motorcycle batteries will pass, if TSA uses actual instead of inflated lead acid equivalent AH measurements.

----------------------------
http://safetravel.dot.gov/definitions.html

Equivalent Lithium Content (ELC). ELC is a measure by which lithium ion batteries are classified.

• 8 grams of equivalent lithium content are equal to about 100 watt-hours.
• 25 grams of equivalent lithium content are equal to about 300 watt-hours.

You can arrive at the number of watt-hours your battery provides if you know how many milliamp hours and volts your battery provides:

mAh/1000 x V = wh

Most lithium ion batteries marketed to consumers are below 100 watt-hours (8 grams ELC). If you are unsure of the watt-hour rating of your lithium ion battery, contact the manufacturer.

Lithium Batteries. When you see this term alone on SafeTravel pages, it refers to both lithium ion batteries and lithium metal batteries. Lithium polymer batteries are a typeof lithium ion battery, and are included in this term.
Lithium Ion Batteries. These are rechargeable lithium batteries, similar to those found in cameras, cell phones, laptop computers, and radio-controlled toys. Lithium polymer batteries are those types of lithium ion batteries. Larger Lithium Ion Batteries contain between 8 and 25 grams Equivalent Lithium Content (ELC). Some very large after-market laptop computer batteries, and some batteries used for professional audio-visual application, fall within this definition.
Smaller Lithium Ion Batteries contain up to 8 grams Equivalent Lithium Content. Cell phone batteries and most laptop computer batteries fall below the 8 gram threshold.
Lithium Ion Batteries with more than 25 grams ELC are forbidden in air travel.
__________________

[frog13]

cy,....when you speak of dead shorts and cable leads are you referring to an uncovered / unprotected lead contacting a piece of the frame....causing a short?.I'm electrically challenged by the way. TIA

P.S. I've been considering a Shorai for my TW200,but have had my reservations due to what I've been reading on alot of different forums. TIA

[_cy_]

Originally Posted by frog13

cy,....when you speak of dead shorts and cable leads are you referring to an uncovered / unprotected lead contacting a piece of the frame....causing a short?.I'm electrically challenged by the way. TIA

P.S. I've been considering a Shorai for my TW200,but have had my reservations due to what I've been reading on alot of different forums. TIA

anytime stock size battery is not used. OEM battery clamp/hold down cannot be used. battery position was carefully engineered by OEM not to short out.

LiFePO4 batteries are generally much smaller so extra care has to used to make certain positive does NOT short to ground.

this goes double when mounting LiFePO4 battery in a different location as commonly done for cafe racers, etc. make dead certain positive cannot short to ground. don't lose your bike to a fire cause by a dead short. lithium batteries discharge at an extremely high rate, easily equal to heat generated by Arc welding.

NO ... battery mfg is not responsible for loosing your bike to a fire caused by a dead short.

[Gumbeaux]

FWIW I guess Shorai now specifies the 21A battery for the F800GS, according to Andrew at Acme Rider Supply (my trusted accessories guy here in the Atlanta area). Picked mine up today. Will let you know how it goes...