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Old 01-23-2013, 08:17 AM   #27031
Wadester
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Just a thought - I've always wanted to make sure my equipment was better than my skills. Don't want the machine to be holding me back, you know!

If buying a new component will make you happy, by all means go for it. But Gummee has a point: if a component is not broken, there is no need to replace it. I haven't noticed anyone going faster with more gears or a different style of shifter or crank. Once you reach a certain level of quality (well above wally-grade) you're as good as gear can make you.

The racer boyos have the bleeding edge because they are paid to. If a few grams will make you faster, just make sure to take a good dump before your ride. And go ride your bike.
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Old 01-23-2013, 08:41 AM   #27032
Tallbastid
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurelius View Post
That is an irrelevant comparison. No one has argued that a much better rider with grade C equipment can't possibly beat lesser riders with grade A equipment. The question is whether top shelf equipment confers a performance benefit, irrespective of the rider. Pretty obviously the answer is yes, else no one would be using it.

Irrelevant? It's the rider, not the equipment. I maintain that unless you're outriding your superfly in those extreme trails of yours, a $1,000 upgrade to your working drivetrain is a waste of money... going from grade A to grade A.

But, as Gummee stated, it's your money.
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Old 01-23-2013, 08:45 AM   #27033
Aurelius
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wadester View Post
Just a thought - I've always wanted to make sure my equipment was better than my skills. Don't want the machine to be holding me back, you know!

If buying a new component will make you happy, by all means go for it. But Gummee has a point: if a component is not broken, there is no need to replace it.
But you're asking the wrong question. Strictly put, I don't 'need' top shelf brakes, suspension components, lighter wheels, etc., to simply ride a bicycle. But having those components will augment whatever skills a rider has and improve the bike's performance. How can anyone seriously argue otherwise?

Quote:
I haven't noticed anyone going faster with more gears or a different style of shifter or crank. Once you reach a certain level of quality (well above wally-grade) you're as good as gear can make you.
To say, 'once you reach a certain level of quality,' already concedes the point I've made: better equipment does matter. Your subjective judgment may be that it doesn't matter all that much, but that's a far cry from the thoughtless claim that the only determinant of performance is the rider. If someone were to make a similar claim that how well a car performs is solely determined by its engine, I doubt anyone here would have trouble seeing the absurdity in it. At least I hope not.
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Old 01-23-2013, 09:05 AM   #27034
YakSpout
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Anyone who's been riding for a decade or two is usually way past spending serious coin to replace a working part because they want something shiny and new, whether the benefit is perceived or concrete. That behavior screams normally screams Fred.

OTOH, if you have the funds and want to buy the latest and greatest, go for it. Be sure to post your KOMs...
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Old 01-23-2013, 09:09 AM   #27035
Aurelius
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Originally Posted by moodfart View Post
I maintain that unless you're outriding your superfly in those extreme trails of yours, a $1,000 upgrade to your working drivetrain is a waste of money... going from grade A to grade A.
"Waste of money" is a subjective judgment, as I'm sure you know. Some people would say the same of trading my perfectly serviceable HT for a high priced FS, but I'm awfully glad I did.
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Dizave opined: Why do you care where the premises come from? They are above reproach. For all intents and purposes, you can just make up all your premises, since they can't be proven anyway. That's why we need premises.
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Old 01-23-2013, 09:13 AM   #27036
k7
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I'm in the middle of this argument but I can easily see both sides.

When I went from my aluminum recumbent to a carbon one, I picked up 2 mph average speed. Before, I struggled to maintain 18 mph on average and with the new one, 20 or better is usually within my grasp. That's huge.

However, I've not spent a dime on the bike components with the exception of a powertap set of wheels. I don't consider that an upgrade since I already have a set of Velocity A23 rims that match the powertap wheels' rims. In fact, if anything, it added a little bit of weight to what I was already using.

At the end of the day however, there's always another rider out there, perhaps on sub-superior equipment who can kick my ass. He wants it more - works harder at it - lives, eats and drinks it.

Me? I just want to ride and achieve my personal goals. I'll talk about my goals a lot here - it keeps me motivated and fearful of being laughed at if I don't at least achieve some of them.

I see this on other sites - guys that are always asking about brand A brakes versus brand B brakes or one chain versus another chain or this tire versus that tire. Fuck that - if these guys spent half the time riding instead of shopping, they'd already be faster. Hell, I have a hard enough time justifying the purchase of my last bike to myself even though I had a pretty good 2012.
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Old 01-23-2013, 09:27 AM   #27037
Aurelius
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YakSpout View Post
Anyone who's been riding for a decade or two is usually way past spending serious coin to replace a working part because they want something shiny and new, whether the benefit is perceived or concrete. That behavior screams normally screams Fred.
Odd that you should say that. The racers I'm acquainted with seem to upgrade components on a monthly basis, sometimes buying a whole new bike at the start of each racing season.
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Dizave opined: Why do you care where the premises come from? They are above reproach. For all intents and purposes, you can just make up all your premises, since they can't be proven anyway. That's why we need premises.
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Old 01-23-2013, 09:46 AM   #27038
fullmonte
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurelius View Post
"Waste of money" is a subjective judgment, as I'm sure you know. Some people would say the same of trading my perfectly serviceable HT for a high priced FS, but I'm awfully glad I did.
I think they may be referring to the law of diminishing returns when it comes to your high dollar component upgrade. A grand for a couple of seconds a lap is a negligible improvement. However, I wholeheartedly agree with your second statement, because I have had the same experience. I reached the limits of my HT and it's limited fork travel, which caused me to crash a lot and left me sore after most rides. Front end washout and truckish handling was constantly dogging me on that bike. The Pivot FS, on the other hand, has increased my average speeds from the low 9s to the low 11s on a 10 mile single track loop. It makes me want to ride every day because it's comfy and more fun to hustle it around at speed. The joy is back, but I still would not have paid full boat retail (5+ grand)for it. Luckily, I scored it off a guy like you who kept it in mint condition with some tasteful upgrades.
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Old 01-23-2013, 09:54 AM   #27039
Tallbastid
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Right, I left my old hard tail for a full squish that cost $2k last winter and never regretted it for a minute. But to pay $1k for new cogs to lose a couple seconds on some online leader board that holds no real importance seems crazy to me. Less smiles per dollar you could say. But again, your money.
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Old 01-23-2013, 10:06 AM   #27040
YakSpout
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurelius View Post
Odd that you should say that. The racers I'm acquainted with seem to upgrade components on a monthly basis, sometimes buying a whole new bike at the start of each racing season.
I ride with some guys like that. (Chase a few of them, actually ) You can race and still be a Fred.

Monthly component upgrades? Sounds more like chasing the shiny, but what do I know. I don't race. I just try to ride enough to keep my IPA intake neutral to my waistline.
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Old 01-23-2013, 10:14 AM   #27041
Aurelius
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fullmonte View Post
I think they may be referring to the law of diminishing returns when it comes to your high dollar component upgrade.
Yes, totally agree with you on that score.

Quote:
A grand for a couple of seconds a lap is a negligible improvement. However, I wholeheartedly agree with your second statement, because I have had the same experience. I reached the limits of my HT and it's limited fork travel, which caused me to crash a lot and left me sore after most rides. Front end washout and truckish handling was constantly dogging me on that bike. The Pivot FS, on the other hand, has increased my average speeds from the low 9s to the low 11s on a 10 mile single track loop. It makes me want to ride every day because it's comfy and more fun to hustle it around at speed. The joy is back, but I still would not have paid full boat retail (5+ grand)for it. Luckily, I scored it off a guy like you who kept it in mint condition with some tasteful upgrades.
See, contrary to what most people here might assume, I'm actually quite miserly. Months ago, I balked at spending money for light weight rims, having convinced myself that the performance improvement (whatever it was) couldn't possibly justify getting rid of a set of perfectly good rims and spending an extra $500 for new ones. Luckily, I was able to get a set on loan for two weeks so I could see for myself. The difference in performance was HUGE. Not only was I able to increase my overall speed on the trails according to Strava, but also the amount of time I could ride without feeling fatigued. That why I can't take someone seriously when they make statements like, "It's %100 the rider." It's a ridiculous claim that's instantly refuted every time I ride.
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Dizave opined: Why do you care where the premises come from? They are above reproach. For all intents and purposes, you can just make up all your premises, since they can't be proven anyway. That's why we need premises.
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Old 01-23-2013, 10:25 AM   #27042
Aurelius
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Originally Posted by moodfart View Post
Right, I left my old hard tail for a full squish that cost $2k last winter and never regretted it for a minute. But to pay $1k for new cogs to lose a couple seconds on some online leader board that holds no real importance seems crazy to me. Less smiles per dollar you could say. But again, your money.
No, you're making a false assumption. The reason I want to swap out the drivetrain is because the stock 3x10 has given me constant problems, and it's gotten worse now that I'm doing very steep climbs. I've had the bike inspected at two shops, and both times I've been told that these problems are inherent to the way 3x10's are designed. Since both my chain and sprockets are due for replacement soon any way, this is the appropriate time for an upgrade.
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Dizave opined: Why do you care where the premises come from? They are above reproach. For all intents and purposes, you can just make up all your premises, since they can't be proven anyway. That's why we need premises.
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Old 01-23-2013, 10:38 AM   #27043
Tallbastid
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I still don't agree with you, but what do you want me to say - 'You win!'?

If you didnt want to hear opinions, you shouldn't have posted it up here.
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Old 01-23-2013, 10:47 AM   #27044
RxZ
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As an overweight, bicycling noob I can see both sides to this. Take me for example. I could stand to lose 40 lbs (It was 50, but thanks to running and cycling 10 of that is gone so far ) How many of you have a mountain bike that weighs 40 pounds? Obviously, the first thing that will help me is to lose the weight.

However, even at my weight and lack of athleticism I can tell that the rear of my Trek bounces around way too much to be safe in corners at much faster speeds than I already go. Full suspension would help, maybe something simple like letting some air out of the rear tire would do the trick. But alas, a good friend of mine that rides semi-professionally, or at least used to, just picked up a new Canondale Lefty which is a hard tail. He is now faster on it than he was his old full suspension.
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Old 01-23-2013, 11:11 AM   #27045
Aurelius
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Originally Posted by moodfart View Post
I still don't agree with you, but what do you want me to say - 'You win!'?

If you didnt want to hear opinions, you shouldn't have posted it up here.
There are opinions built on false assumptions and personal biases, and there are opinions which are rationally defensible. I don't consider them to be of equal value.
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Dizave opined: Why do you care where the premises come from? They are above reproach. For all intents and purposes, you can just make up all your premises, since they can't be proven anyway. That's why we need premises.
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