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Old 01-26-2013, 11:52 AM   #31
configurationspace
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The advice you're seeing here is from a wide range of people's experience with totally different lithium ion batteries. They're not all the same. Much of the advice above is from people with no experience with the new Li-I batteries designed for bikes (using things like the A123 technology). So pick and choose carefully!
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Old 01-27-2013, 01:24 AM   #32
everycredit
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Originally Posted by jdbalt View Post
These batteries are actually not forgiving. They will fail if discharged to far, they can detonate, or burn quite vigorously if overcharged.
If you read my post, it may be difficult to read the sarcasm. Li-ion batteries being forgiving and patients exploding with implanted batteries should have gave it away.

That said, the technology is better and I would be greatly surprised if the failure rate was greater than 1:1,000,000.
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Old 01-27-2013, 03:14 AM   #33
rmarmbruster
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I have just read in another post where the Shorai's (lithium ion model) need to be warmed up before starting in cold weather, apparently they have a low temp cut-off switch for high current draw. Switch the lights on and draw some current through for a few seconds to warm the battery before the high starting current load is applied.

For my money I just fitted a glass matt battery in my R1200GS.

Cheers
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Old 01-27-2013, 03:31 AM   #34
Marki_GSA
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Originally Posted by rmarmbruster View Post
I have just read in another post where the Shorai's (lithium ion model) need to be warmed up before starting in cold weather, apparently they have a low temp cut-off switch for high current draw. Switch the lights on and draw some current through for a few seconds to warm the battery before the high starting current load is applied.

For my money I just fitted a glass matt battery in my R1200GS.

Cheers
I guess trying to start the bike would warm the battery pretty quickly even although it would most likely fail to start. It's the leap of faith it takes to realise that despite the sound your not actually flattening the battery.
I think the more I read comments the more I want to keep away from these batteries. I don't think they are particularly an incendiary device waiting to happen but their performance does seem to be a bit poor under certain circumstances. Maybe they aren't so bad but the manufacturers are miss representing their true capacity. Certainly seems the case when you have to go up 3 sizes nearly doubling the claimed capacity to get reliable cold starts.
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Old 01-27-2013, 03:37 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Twilight Error View Post
I used to build LiIon batteries for the aerospace market. I would not install any one of the current crop of commercial LiIon batteries into my bike. The charging systems we've got are designed around Lead-Acid, which are vastly more tolerant of abuse than any LiIon chemistry available. Even the relatively forgiving Iron Phosphate variants don't match up well with our charging systems. I would wait until batteries with dedicated charge control electronics positioned between the charging system and the cells are on the market.
your comments may be true for the lithium cobalt based li-ion batteries. but you are way off on LiFePO4 not matching up with 12v motorcycle systems.

you know this but LOTS of other folks are getting confused with li-ion label which includes lithium cobalt used in Boeing 787 and lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO44) used in motorcycles. Lithium cobalt batteries are inherently unsafe ... overcharge by 1/2 volt over 4.2v full charge ... battery could go into thermal runaway (explosion) vs LiFePO4 has to subjected to wild abuse before it will finally catch on fire. LiFePO4 batteries are inherently stable and are the safest of all li-ion batteries.

think in terms of cell multiples... lithium cobalt based batteries operates at about 3.7v nominal, which mean that cell operates between 3.5v-4.2v fully charged. lithium cobalt based cells simply don't match 12v systems. compared to LiFePO4's 3.3v nominal which matches up nicely with 12v systems. LiFePO4 are fully charged at 14.6v with 20% remaining at 12.8v. which you don't want to drop below.

12v charging system typically operate 13.8-14.2v which means a std 12v charging system cannot overcharge a LiFePO4 battery. cells however can get unbalanced without an internal BMS.

LifePO4 batteries are starting to come with an internal BMS. Earth-X has an internal BMS that self balances cells. Shorai may not claim it but their behavior indicates presences of an internal BMS on some Shorai batteries.

LiFePO4 has an extremely low self discharge. after you charge a LiFePO4 battery to 14.6v ... observe it's discharge ... after sitting overnight battery will drop to 14.1v range, then hold that charge level for months.

if LiFePo4 battery has an internal BMS, voltage will drop to 13.85v range after sitting overnight. there's an internal shunt that bleeds off excess voltage, allowing cells not fully charged to reach full charge. some LiFePO4 battery has external ports allowing use of an intelligent charger that balances each cell.

note there's very little power 14.6v to 13.85v ... 90% of available power occurs 13.3v to 12.8v range ... extremely flat discharge curve

here's Powerlab 8 charging Shoria with balancing leads. Powerlab 8 is currently world's most advanced li-ion charger that you can actually buy.






_cy_ screwed with this post 01-27-2013 at 04:08 AM
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Old 01-27-2013, 03:42 AM   #36
WindSailor
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Here is a very good thread on batteries: Motorcycle Batteries .. AGM, GEL, Wet, Lithium Iron Phosphate (Li-ion)

-Edit-

HAH !!!!!!

While I was looking up the above thread - guess who posted right above me?

The threads originator...

Thanks for jumping in.
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Old 01-27-2013, 04:19 AM   #37
_cy_
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Originally Posted by WindSailor View Post
Here is a very good thread on batteries: Motorcycle Batteries .. AGM, GEL, Wet, Lithium Iron Phosphate (Li-ion)

-Edit-

HAH !!!!!!

While I was looking up the above thread - guess who posted right above me?

The threads originator...

Thanks for jumping in.
thanks... getting concerned at all the confusion caused by Boeing 787 li-ion batteries in the news.

Li-ion battery label includes a butt load of chemistries, which includes lithium cobalt used in 787 and LiFePO4 used in motorcycles.

they are NOT the same... completely different voltages and behaviors. lithium cobalt is inherently unstable and need all sorts of protections to keep from going into thermal runaway (explosions) vs LiFePO4 are inherently stable and need wild abuse to catch it on fire.

I've had a lead acid battery explode throwing acid all over ... all batteries if abused bad enough will do bad things.

_cy_ screwed with this post 01-27-2013 at 04:26 AM
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Old 01-27-2013, 03:03 PM   #38
def
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Originally Posted by configurationspace View Post
The advice you're seeing here is from a wide range of people's experience with totally different lithium ion batteries. They're not all the same. Much of the advice above is from people with no experience with the new Li-I batteries designed for bikes (using things like the A123 technology). So pick and choose carefully!
Just for the recpord, A123 has been sold in bankrupcy to the Chinese.

Attempting to spin an electric starter under high load (H-Ds, BMW boxers, diesel engines, etc.) at cold temperatures when friction and rheological losses are high (cold oil and tight engine tolerances) with a battery that is not delivering full starting voltage places a high load on a variety of starter circuit components like the solenoid, the starter and other electrical components that rely on the correct voltage to function properly (ABS) and the reason that many diesel applications use two or more 12 volt batteries in parallel, some in series-parallel to provide 24 VDC starting voltage.

I have replaced starters on marine diesels. Those starter motors are hugh and draw lots of current. If the available battery voltage is low, you're gonna damage something.

For these reason, I'll not be using lithium batteries in my vehicles just yet.

Warning: if your starter is turning very slowly or all you're getting is the solenoid clicking, do not attempt further starts until you have restored full battery charge. Otherwise damage to your starter system may result.
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