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Old 01-28-2013, 12:17 PM   #15646
Coastalcop
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~TABASCO~ View Post
Hey DC...

Yep, just as I said with my FJR, your bike sounds like the same way........ I wounder if the "ignition system / ECM" needs to see a certain amount of current before it will fire off a spark... ?

The starter on the FJR will turn the motor over (what seemed) just fine..... But it was really hard starting, until I installed a new battery..... I also has the battery on a tender...

Just a FYI...... I have a customer with a Tenere.. He let me look at his Tenere for a custom part. While we where talking he was complaining that his volt meter was acting all screwy. When I went to go start it, the darn thing would turn over but not start. It would turn over fine but not start. I had to put it on a charger and hold the throttle wide open. It barely started after fifteen minutes of screwing with it... After I got the bike back to him, he found that he had some type of "wiring" issue with his fuse block and his volt meter. The battery had been on some type of slow discharge, and the battery was week. After he found the issue and fixed it, he has had no more issues with the battery or starting....... Don't know if this will help, but thought I would throw this out on the WWW.....


Hey Jaxon, when things slow down I will get you those pics of the super T, I called nad am still waiting on a return call from scotts but I am following up. have a great one!!
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Old 01-28-2013, 12:19 PM   #15647
markjenn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Offcamber View Post
I'm not sure why wide open throttle would cause it to start....
WOT is generally standard operating procedure to start any flooded vehicle and is often mentioned in the OM.

With engines with direct connections between the throttle and the throttle plates, WOT opens the throttle plates and pumps a lot of air through the engine, purging it of excess fuel and allowing a combustible mixture. With drive-by-wire throttles, there is speculation that the ECU notices the WOT condition and either opens the throttle plates and/or cuts off fuel although this hasn't been totally confirmed. In any event, it generally works.

- Mark
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Old 01-28-2013, 01:05 PM   #15648
GrahamD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markjenn View Post
WOT is generally standard operating procedure to start any flooded vehicle and is often mentioned in the OM.

With engines with direct connections between the throttle and the throttle plates, WOT opens the throttle plates and pumps a lot of air through the engine, purging it of excess fuel and allowing a combustible mixture. With drive-by-wire throttles, there is speculation that the ECU notices the WOT condition and either opens the throttle plates and/or cuts off fuel although this hasn't been totally confirmed. In any event, it generally works.

- Mark
OR there is a map for neutral and "clutch in" that just makes the throttle follow the input, just in case.

Seems to me me when I was doing the hard start tests the further I twisted when starting the further the motor jumped when it fired. JUST LIKE A STANDARD CARB SETUP.

I never used WOT. 1/2 - 3/4 was fine.
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Old 01-28-2013, 01:59 PM   #15649
Happy Snapper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dave6 View Post
My experience with the hard start has always been because of slightly low battery (playing with it in the shop, wiring accessories etc.). I also have the powered tank bag ring which draws all the time and if left without running or charging for some time it will drain the battery enough that it turns over good but will not start. Put the charger on it for a few mins. and it fires right up. Some people turn off their bikes with the kill switch and then walk away with the lights on etc. This may be enough to reduce what the battery has to start the bike. This bike seams to need a full charge to start the bike. I have 30,000 kms on the bike now and have never been stranded because of hard starting or any other reason. I used to own a 1968 HD so I understand what hard starting is all about. A second battery would not be for me.
How can the power tank ring draw current with nothing connected to it?

It is simply a "power point" for plugging accessories into?
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Old 01-28-2013, 02:59 PM   #15650
Dallara
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Laugh You leave for a few days and look what happens...

Quote:
Originally Posted by snakebitten View Post
I love Dallara. :) And he has helped quite a few folks on forums...

...And I still think Rockport drivers suck...


Aw, shucks, Snake... You shouldn't have.

And I'll take Rockport drivers over Houston ones - especially the ones in old Caddy's, Lincoln's, and Monte Carlo's with 25" wheels and spinning hubcaps...




Quote:
Originally Posted by snakebitten View Post
As for DLC coating...

...I want it. Cuz it's something to show the GS dudes. :)


Well, not to be bragging, but so far the only part of my Super Tenere any BMW rider has seen is the taillight...



Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty bike View Post
Congratulations GrahamD, you just reiterated what I stated months ago on the Super Ten forum.

Slightly flat battery really isn't part of the picture. You did too much, but thank you for your sacrifice all the same.

Doesn't really matter. People will refuse to believe they are the problem or are doing anything wrong. Gotta love Roy, Dude, it's not a Suzuki, deal with it.

And the guy with 8 bikes in the garage, it's not the other 7, it's a Yamaha and there is a known issue with EFI Yamahas. The cold start sequence doesn't like to be interrupted. Do that, then let it sit, it will display the hard start 99% of the time.

Why? Who cares? You know how to deal with it, so DO THAT and stop whining like a 6 year old that had the chain come off her trike.


Couldn't agree with ya' more, on every point, Dirty Bike!

It is looking more and more, almost by the minute, that the "hard starting problem" is one of simple "operator error"... And again, that's not to say anyone is doing anything actually "wrong". Just that they aren't following the proper starting protocol.

Both my Aprilia and my late model Ducati's had starter buttons that once pushed kept the starter engaged until the bike started. The rider didn't have to hold the button down. They just kept cranking until the bike fired or you flipped the kill switch or turned off the key. Funny, too... A bunch of Ducati and Aprilia owners on forums *COMPLAINED* vehemently that such operation was a "problem" much like folks claim this one is, and wanted the factory to "fix" it!

No two bikes are alike, nor are their handling characteristics, power characteristics, etc. Why should it surprise anyone that different brand and model motorcycles might have slightly different starting routines or protocols?

As for Roy... Don't worry about him. All he *EVER* does is rant, rave, and throw temper tantrums. He never has anything constructive to say, nor has he ever tried to help a soul. Most of his posts are of the "Look at ME! Look at ME!" type, and tend to lack any substance.

Loved how his experience of "hard starting" happened once in the garage and then again loading his S-10 into a *TRAILER*... Makes you wonder if he ever actually rides it!



Quote:
Originally Posted by markjenn View Post
That's simply not true. Tens of us can do all the "wrong" things and the bike will start time after time. Then do the "right" thing and it won't fire. There are contributing factors certainly, but there is a random element to this problem as well.

- Mark


Sorry, Mark... That just doesn't hold water. Either the bikes have a hardware or software issue or they don't. Modern motorcycles, or the electronic systems don't tend to have "random" events - and when they do it's usually catastrophic, i.e. the engine blows up, or the ECU quits altogether, etc. They don't just decide not to start on a "random" basis.

OTOH, it is quite possible for humans to perform "random" events that spawn a "random element". You might start your bike exactly the same way hundreds of times, but then just that *ONE* time you don't hold the starter button down, or inadvertently give it just that little bit of throttle during a cold start, etc. and *BOOM* - now you've got a flooded engine and a "hard starting problem".

It certainly makes more sense than their being some sort of evil, "random" mechanical gremlin that only attacks certain riders at certain times, and some of those many times, yet always right there close to home.



Quote:
Originally Posted by markjenn View Post
WOT is generally standard operating procedure to start any flooded vehicle and is often mentioned in the OM.

With engines with direct connections between the throttle and the throttle plates, WOT opens the throttle plates and pumps a lot of air through the engine, purging it of excess fuel and allowing a combustible mixture. With drive-by-wire throttles, there is speculation that the ECU notices the WOT condition and either opens the throttle plates and/or cuts off fuel although this hasn't been totally confirmed. In any event, it generally works.

- Mark


OTOH, for the most part all that's entirely true, but before we go there...



Quote:
Originally Posted by GrahamD View Post
OR there is a map for neutral and "clutch in" that just makes the throttle follow the input, just in case.

Seems to me me when I was doing the hard start tests the further I twisted when starting the further the motor jumped when it fired. JUST LIKE A STANDARD CARB SETUP.

I never used WOT. 1/2 - 3/4 was fine.


I've been trying to tell folks there is a "neutral map" in the Super Tenere's ECU for quite some time, despite some saying there's just no way. If you think about it a moment it's the only thing that explains why the ever-popular CJM (clutch jumper mod) works, and why that say CJM *removes* the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gear throttle restrictions.

I would imagine there is, indeed, software in the Super Tenere's ECU that has the throttle butterfly stepper motor exactly mimic throttle input during starting - i.e. in neutral or with the clutch in. This was one reason I kept asking about throttle cable adjustment. If the throttle cables were adjusted incorrectly then during starting they could be in the improper position for proper starting. However, once the engine is in gear and rolling with the clutch out the ECU would begin to modulate butterfly opening according to its mapping. Use the CJM and this goes out the window...

But back to to starting... If the Super Tenere does have such a "neutral/clutch-in map", and it does have the throttle butterfly stepper motor directly follow twistgrip input, then that would readily explain why throttle manipulation during a recalcitrant start-up would help clear up the problem.

Just my two centavos... YMMV.

Dallara




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Old 01-28-2013, 03:24 PM   #15651
pluric
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I leave for a few days and it's all motorcycle talk. WTF?

I got 8 inches of snow last night and more coming tomorrow. I could give a shit less
if my bike starts. Now if the snowblower starts acting up..... then there's a problem.


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Old 01-28-2013, 03:32 PM   #15652
dave6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Snapper View Post
How can the power tank ring draw current with nothing connected to it?

It is simply a "power point" for plugging accessories into?
The tank ring has some circuit in it that stops a spark from happening when the bag is connected and disconnected from the bike. A spark right there after a sloppy fill up on a hot day may not be a good thing. I am going to be putting a switch for the tank ring on the bike so I can shut it off when I am not ridding. The electrical drain this ring puts on the battery is documented elsewhere on this site. The starting problem is not a problem for me, at least not yet.
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Old 01-28-2013, 03:33 PM   #15653
~TABASCO~
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I saw this same blower on You tube the other day.... What a MONSTER !!! Its almost as bad ass as my Tenere...

My Tenere can throw snow better than this thing......
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Old 01-28-2013, 03:34 PM   #15654
dave6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pluric View Post


I leave for a few days and it's all motorcycle talk. WTF?

I got 8 inches of snow last night and more coming tomorrow. I could give a shit less
if my bike starts. Now if the snowblower starts acting up..... then there's a problem.


What kind of mileage you get with that thing????? Two shovel fulls to the gallon?????? Love the exhaust....
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Old 01-28-2013, 03:58 PM   #15655
pluric
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~TABASCO~ View Post
I saw this same blower on You tube the other day.... What a MONSTER !!! Its almost as bad ass as my Tenere...

My Tenere can throw snow better than this thing......
Yeah, I heard you had given up on the Ohlins and put a plow on the front.

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Old 01-28-2013, 04:02 PM   #15656
pluric
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What kind of mileage you get with that thing????? Two shovel fulls to the gallon?????? Love the exhaust....
Aw it's worth it to have neighbors two blocks away think it's still snowing.
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Old 01-28-2013, 04:05 PM   #15657
dave6
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Originally Posted by pluric View Post
Aw it's worth it to have neighbors two blocks away think it's still snowing.
Thats interesting, it just started snowing here.......I think I might have a walk around the block and check for 400 HP snow blowers in the area.....
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Old 01-28-2013, 04:13 PM   #15658
pluric
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Thats interesting, it just started snowing here.......I think I might have a walk around the block and check for 400 HP snow blowers in the area.....
Canada?! I had no idea the thing would throw snow that far.
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Old 01-28-2013, 04:16 PM   #15659
Dallara
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Thumb Bags Connection Tank Bag Ring...

Quote:
Originally Posted by dave6 View Post
The tank ring has some circuit in it that stops a spark from happening when the bag is connected and disconnected from the bike. A spark right there after a sloppy fill up on a hot day may not be a good thing. I am going to be putting a switch for the tank ring on the bike so I can shut it off when I am not ridding. The electrical drain this ring puts on the battery is documented elsewhere on this site. The starting problem is not a problem for me, at least not yet.

I've got one of the "Bags Connection" powered tank rings, and have it wired through the same relay that triggers the power to my GPS and radar detector. None of 'em get juice until the key is switched on, and it works terrific. Never had it run down the battery.

That said, when I first got it I had to wire it (along with the GPS and the radar detector) kind of "quick & dirty" because I was leaving for a trip in just a couple of days, so all were wired direct to the battery - no relay or switching. Had to always remember to turn the detector and GPS off when parked, as well as not have anything plugged into the tank bag outlets, etc. (or have the tank bag removed). Ended up running it that way for about 4 months, and I never had the tank ring run the battery down... Bike always started, etc.

And yes. my "Bags Connection" tank ring has the thick, flat cable coming off it that includes the big, black "box" on it. Don't know why it never ran my battery down if it does, indeed, have some sort of constant parasitic drain if not switched... But there ya' go.

Just FYI... YMMV.

Dallara



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Old 01-28-2013, 04:19 PM   #15660
Dallara
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Laugh So you wimped out? Did you buy a Black Super Tenere, too?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pluric View Post


I leave for a few days and it's all motorcycle talk. WTF?


So where are those pics of your wife in the swimsuit on the cruise?

Dallara



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