Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki & Kawasaki - Listen Up, Please...

[rpet]

Originally Posted by mtntrails

Wow! 100 posts and over 4000 views in just 5 days.

Honda... Suzuki... Yamaha... Kawasaki... Are you listening? Do you guys have anything "in the hopper" that we can get excited about? Hello???..... (crickets chirping). Hello???....

Why would anyone think that Japanese executives are reading random ADVrider posts?

[Sierra Thumper]

Originally Posted by rpet

Why would anyone think that Japanese executives are reading random ADVrider posts?

The bike makers DO read internet forums, especially the bigger ones, to get feedback on their machinery. Hayabusa.org actually had Suzuki contact them and arrange to meet at one of the org meet-and-greets.....Suzuki used the get-together as a test group, to get feedback on what they wanted out of the 2nd gen (2008 and up) hayabusa. Lots of companies use the net as a way of judging their product, as well as getting feedback on what the consumer would like changed, added etc.
It never hurts to speak you're mind on what you'd like out of a company, you never know who's reading

[NJ-Brett]

Yes, note how quickly they corrected the big drz400 transmission screw up!

I also notice how they sell mostly 250cc dual sports which do not have the power for the speed limits and distances in the US.

Originally Posted by Sierra Thumper

The bike makers DO read internet forums, especially the bigger ones, to get feedback on their machinery. Hayabusa.org actually had Suzuki contact them and arrange to meet at one of the org meet-and-greets.....Suzuki used the get-together as a test group, to get feedback on what they wanted out of the 2nd gen (2008 and up) hayabusa. Lots of companies use the net as a way of judging their product, as well as getting feedback on what the consumer would like changed, added etc.
It never hurts to speak you're mind on what you'd like out of a company, you never know who's reading

[Sierra Thumper]

Originally Posted by marc11

I think the issue is larger than tooling or R&D costs, we know most companies have engines and bikes that can be slightly changed to work. Take a KLX450 and make it street legal like the KLX250s, its not that hard and would cost little to do so. But the issue is multi faceted, first in order to sell a bike in large numbers to make a profit you need to sell it in more than one country usually. To do that a company needs to get every new bike inspected and passed to be sold as street legal in every single country they wish to sell it in, that takes time and costs money.

Second, most companies are moving toward world bikes and modular designs, creating a special purpose engine or frame for just one bike to be sold in one or two countries just doesn't make economic sense.

Third, many countries, especially the larger growing ones like India, China and others have severe limitations on engine size with cost penalties for engines over certain cc range, usually 125 to 250; so to be a world engine, and to sell in large numbers these factors need to be considered....especially for Japanese companies who look to sell in Japan first where small displacement bikes rule the roost.

Finally the bikes purpose. Outside of the USA most countries see bikes not as play things but as tools, commuter vehicles, delivery vehicles and daily drivers. They do not have much use for a hard core single purpose dual sport that gets 40 MPG, what a freaking joke that a lot of bikes sold here in the US get under 40 MPG and few get over 50. In most other countries economy and economics of use are important, so a maxed out, high strung engine that makes huge power, 450cc and gets 40 MPG really will not sell in large numbers globally.

Here in Japan the only bikes I see WITHOUT top cases and hand guards for winter use are cruisers; ever single bike I have seen has a top case and everyone is clearly a multi-use bike.

Sure, in the EU and in the US sport bikes and high powered dual sports sell well, but outside of there, it is the smaller, lower powered multipurpose bikes which sell more and which are the future.

Thus, we get what we get from the big four Japanese companies, I do not see that changing as they are looking at the home markets and growing Asian markets as the future for sales and the formual there is different.

Me, I would just be happy with a KLR that had fuel injection and a six speed, but as noted above, I do not see that happening anytime soon, there really is just no reason, people will buy the same amount here anyway...

One mans opinion anyway.

I agree completely And thats okay, because we have other options to fill our particular needs...even if they are more expensive than we'd like to see. You can always work around price by shopping used, and being a savvy buyer
A smart man CAN have Champagne on a beer budget

I do think that the japanese big 4 are perfectly content to leave the high-performance dual-sport niche to KTM and the other exotic makers.......probably forever. I imagine we'll see the KLR/DR/XRL 650's soldier on for awhile to come, as long as they stay relatively cheap and keep selling.

Toss in the odd 250 here and there, and thats what we can expect from japan......

[Sierra Thumper]

Originally Posted by NJ-Brett

Yes, note how quickly they corrected the big drz400 transmission screw up!

I also notice how they sell mostly 250cc dual sports which do not have the power for the speed limits and distances in the US.

Reading what we write, and agreeing with it is 2 different things.......they're only going to change what makes money for them
Its all about the benjamins.....

[Albie]

Originally Posted by Nevada

And in '09, you could get an WR250 for 4k. Why do you think there are SO blasted many '08 WR250s around??? Where are the '09s? The '10s? :

The prices haven't gone up because of production cutbacks, they've gone up because of the weakness of the dollar, the purported reasons for which are a subject for another thread down in the basement.

LOL, you just said where are all the 09's and 10's??? The answer, they aren't very many because of the cutback in manufacturing. In '09 it was '08 model WR's that Yamaha was dumping.

[Albie]

Originally Posted by Sierra Thumper

I actually have to agree......even tho they could strengthen the necessary engine parts to make it last, it would somehow magically lose about half its hp making the conversion to the street, and gain 50-60lbs or more

The same thing happens with the japanese american street offerings, especially the sportbikes.....BMW's S1000RR puts out over 20 more hp than kawi's ZX10, not because its more powerful, but because the kawi is factory limited to 20hp less. It was a huge debacle in the sportbike world when the new ZX10 was released, since it was supposed to be a direct competitor in the power department with the BMW......and with a simple ecu reflash it gains the lost 20 hp plus some.
But from the factory its purposely nuetered, as are all the other japanese 1000's to some degree sold in america. Most other parts of the world still get the full power versions of these bikes though
And no matter how much the magazines grill the japanese makers, they never say why the U.S. gets nuetered bikes.

I remember when the japanese were about performance first and foremost.....but I have to agree with others here, I doubt we'll be seeing any kind of true, reasonably priced, high performance dual sport from the japanese. For whatever reason they just don't have the kahunas to make one

I guess its time to pay the premium and Go Orange!!

The Japanese manufacturers saw the writing on the wall back in 2000 and realized they needed to self regulate before the governments did. All the liter + bikes are speed limited to 186 mph/300 KPH. Of course these kinds of things are easy enough to bypass like reflashing the ECU's to get back the HP, or TRE's to fool the computer into thinking the bikes in 5th.

[NJ-Brett]

I thought they made money selling bikes.
If they had fixed the DRZ transmission 10 years ago, I am sure they would have sold a LOT more of them, or maybe they make money selling people fists full of front sprockets to change out during every ride?

People must have been screaming for them to drop the dr350 with the 6 speed trans and make a nice bike with a narrow ratio 5 speed for single track and 80 mph hiway rides.

All they had to do was fit a US gearset in if they did not want to change to a 6 speed, just a few different gears to sell boat loads more bikes...here and in Europe...

I hear the new drz650 will have a close ratio 4 speed trans...

Originally Posted by Sierra Thumper

Reading what we write, and agreeing with it is 2 different things.......they're only going to change what makes money for them
Its all about the benjamins.....

[Albie]

Originally Posted by Gundy

I was looking at one of the new WR450Fs this weekend and the salesman pulled out the service manual. He showed me a table that said valve checks were at 600 miles, then 3,000 miles......did I read that right? Maybe it was a non-race table? That's not all that bad for the average weekend warrior if I was reading it correctly. Baja kit is $375 and they were selling the leftover at the same price as the 250R....clear choice for me at 90% dirt. Daily commuter, probably not.

Well, when you consider the valve check interval on a lot of Yammy's is 26K miles, 3K is fairly frequent.

[Off the grid]

Originally Posted by Gundy

I was looking at one of the new WR450Fs this weekend and the salesman pulled out the service manual. He showed me a table that said valve checks were at 600 miles, then 3,000 miles......did I read that right? Maybe it was a non-race table? That's not all that bad for the average weekend warrior if I was reading it correctly. Baja kit is $375 and they were selling the leftover at the same price as the 250R....clear choice for me at 90% dirt. Daily commuter, probably not.

The WR450F is the "clear choice" for a rider that is doing 90% dirt?
You going to replace half the shitty parts that come on it, the crappy 5-speed tranny and re-tune the suspension as well?

Good luck with that. You are going to have a 13k 450 that's still vastly inferior to a KTM thats 10 years older.

[joexr]

Honda , Yamaha , Suzuki & Kawasaki listen up. Off the couch has spoken.

[Sierra Thumper]

Originally Posted by Off the grid

The WR450F is the "clear choice" for a rider that is doing 90% dirt?
You going to replace half the shitty parts that come on it, the crappy 5-speed tranny and re-tune the suspension as well?

Good luck with that. You are going to have a 13k 450 that's still vastly inferior to a KTM thats 10 years older.

The only area the japanese make a competitive dirt machine is with their mx bikes......otherwise you're better of buying a new/used euro bike. I think they've given up on everything else........still not sure why tho

[Off the grid]

Originally Posted by joexr

Honda , Yamaha , Suzuki & Kawasaki listen up. Off the couch has spoken.

Don't fucking listen to me, look around the trails. Look at what riders are riding. I'm just pointing out facts. If that bothers you, it's on you, bro.

[Royal Tiger]

Originally Posted by Foot dragger

Have you actually weighed that G650X? I would be surprised if it was 100 lbs lighter then a KLR.

Having owned and ridden both, I wouldn't be.

http://www.bikez.com/motorcycles/kaw...lr650_2009.php

http://www.bikez.com/motorcycles/bmw...lenge_2007.php

Bikez.com lists a second gen KLR650 at 432lbs wet, and a G650X XChallenge at 317lbs dry. Loading up the G650X with fuel and oil easily gets it in the mid 330's, so again, it's +/- 100 lbs lighter. I've seen numbers for the KLR as high as 440, and numbers as low as 308 for the XC, so I'll stand by the 100lb average difference. I know it's a hell of a lot easier pushing it up into the back of my Toyota Tundra.

[Sierra Thumper]

Originally Posted by Royal Tiger

Having owned and ridden both, I wouldn't be.

http://www.bikez.com/motorcycles/kaw...lr650_2009.php

http://www.bikez.com/motorcycles/bmw...lenge_2007.php

Bikez.com lists a second gen KLR650 at 432lbs wet, and a G650X XChallenge at 317lbs dry. Loading up the G650X with fuel and oil easily gets it in the mid 330's, so again, it's +/- 100 lbs lighter. I've seen numbers for the KLR as high as 440, and numbers as low as 308 for the XC, so I'll stand by the 100lb average difference. I know it's a hell of a lot easier pushing it up into the back of my Toyota Tundra.

I've read the 440 stats for the 08 and up KLR as well........good lord, nothing you take into real dirt should weigh 440lbs.......I don't care what brand it is

When you hit that weight bracket and up, keep it to flat smooth dry hard dirt roads where it belongs 1000cc sportbikes weigh less than that