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Old 01-30-2013, 06:27 PM   #31
def
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Originally Posted by scooteraug02 View Post
Put it in the trash, especially if you have black mold around the seal.
The seal is OK...no mold or fowl odors. The wax motor thing did take out R11 and Q6 which have been replaced. The wax motor is the improved version with the black shaft.

R52 burned. I'm investigating the reason. The control board is being repaired and we'll spin up the gyros once the unit is back together. These are good machines.
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Old 01-30-2013, 07:41 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by JimVonBaden View Post
Generally multiple short trips where condensation doesn't have a chance to burn off. This is why you should do one trip a week of at least half an hour.

Jim
+1

If I remember correctly for the oil not to go into 'extreme duty' as per the manual, the bike has to run at operating temperature for at least 20 minutes.
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Old 01-30-2013, 07:59 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by WindSailor View Post
+1

If I remember correctly for the oil not to go into 'extreme duty' as per the manual, the bike has to run at operating temperature for at least 20 minutes.
Honestly in the decades that I have had motorcycles and other vehicles I do not believe that I could or have contaminated the oil by only making "short" trips...whatever the hell that is...less than 20 mins? Look unless you are at 100% humidity and make hundreds of 5-10 min engine start/runs...how much moisture from combustion could really accumulate to cause a frothing oil? Sorry I personally believe that is an old wives tale...but as always I could be wrong...
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Old 01-31-2013, 02:18 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Wallowa View Post
Honestly in the decades that I have had motorcycles and other vehicles I do not believe that I could or have contaminated the oil by only making "short" trips...whatever the hell that is...less than 20 mins? Look unless you are at 100% humidity and make hundreds of 5-10 min engine start/runs...how much moisture from combustion could really accumulate to cause a frothing oil? Sorry I personally believe that is an old wives tale...but as always I could be wrong...

Yeah, I gotta go with you on this one re foaming. Short trips will fubar the oil though.

What is being missed here is not whether to water in the oil causes frothing, it is the water in the oil forming carbonic acids. Water + oil + carbon from combustion (ring by-pass) = acids. This is really nasty shit to circulate thru your crankcase. This is why it is important to heat the oil to boil off the water, not because of foam.
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Old 01-31-2013, 11:15 AM   #35
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Agreed

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Originally Posted by billdonna View Post
Yeah, I gotta go with you on this one re foaming. Short trips will fubar the oil though.

What is being missed here is not whether to water in the oil causes frothing, it is the water in the oil forming carbonic acids. Water + oil + carbon from combustion (ring by-pass) = acids. This is really nasty shit to circulate thru your crankcase. This is why it is important to heat the oil to boil off the water, not because of foam.

Yup carbonic acid is indeed nasty stuff that you do not want near any bearings...that is why a relatively cheap oil analysis could save big $$$$ in the future if you suspect contamination.

"From The Clouds"? ...kool.
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Old 01-31-2013, 01:08 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallowa View Post
Honestly in the decades that I have had motorcycles and other vehicles I do not believe that I could or have contaminated the oil by only making "short" trips...whatever the hell that is...less than 20 mins? Look unless you are at 100% humidity and make hundreds of 5-10 min engine start/runs...how much moisture from combustion could really accumulate to cause a frothing oil? Sorry I personally believe that is an old wives tale...but as always I could be wrong...
It isn't combustion moisture, it is sweat from the disparity of temperatures in motor and air. Just like a glass of cold water on a hot day.

Jim
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Old 01-31-2013, 01:53 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by JimVonBaden View Post
It isn't combustion moisture, it is sweat from the disparity of temperatures in motor and air. Just like a glass of cold water on a hot day.

Jim

The sweat is on the OUTSIDE of the water glass.
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Old 01-31-2013, 02:32 PM   #38
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The sweat is on the OUTSIDE of the water glass.
And the cold water is on the inside.

Reverse it.

Jim
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Old 01-31-2013, 03:03 PM   #39
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When choosing a 'winter' oil, look for an oil with a higher Total Base Number (TBN). This is the ability of the oil to neutralize acids. Diesels generally have a 9-15 TBN, largely due to the higher sulphur content of the fuel, and the sulphuric acid byproduct of combustion. Auto and motorcycle specific oil are typically 5-8 TBN. Since I use my bike for commuting, and my one way commute is less than 10 miles, I run Rotella in the winter, especially in my '72 Airhead...
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Old 01-31-2013, 04:23 PM   #40
def
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When choosing a 'winter' oil, look for an oil with a higher Total Base Number (TBN). This is the ability of the oil to neutralize acids. Diesels generally have a 9-15 TBN, largely due to the higher sulphur content of the fuel, and the sulphuric acid byproduct of combustion. Auto and motorcycle specific oil are typically 5-8 TBN. Since I use my bike for commuting, and my one way commute is less than 10 miles, I run Rotella in the winter, especially in my '72 Airhead...
Excellent.

High TBN oils also often permit longer OCIs.

Rotella, Delo and Delvac are all excellent HDEOs. You don't need the synthetic versions to get the high TBN advantage. Also, if you find yourself a quart low, any truck stop carries them as well as Wal-mart.

They are low cost oils used by diesel fleet owners who demand quality and value.
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Old 01-31-2013, 05:58 PM   #41
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True..But

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Originally Posted by JimVonBaden View Post
And the cold water is on the inside.

Reverse it.

Jim
True but the outside of the glass has unlimited exposure to atmospheric moisture and the inside of a motor [crankcase] is a very small space holding very little volume that could only contain a very small amount of water molecules...even as the internal volume cools and becomes air more dense...not much moisture can be drawn into the motor..

At least that is my theory and I could be wrong!
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Old 01-31-2013, 06:18 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Wallowa View Post
True but the outside of the glass has unlimited exposure to atmospheric moisture and the inside of a motor [crankcase] is a very small space holding very little volume that could only contain a very small amount of water molecules...even as the internal volume cools and becomes air more dense...not much moisture can be drawn into the motor..

At least that is my theory and I could be wrong!
I'm not sure I have the exact terminology to explain this, which is why I am keeping it as simple as possible. However, the water doesn't form just on the site glass, it forms on all surfaces on the inside of the engine the are not submerged in oil. Those spaces are heated by oil and the heavier components in the oil, while the thin case material cools. The hot air contains moisture which clings to the metal as the case metal cools. It then runs down into the oil to contaminate the oil.

Multiple short trips heats the oil, but not enough to dry it out, while still hot enough to create yet more condensation. Eventually the oil turns milky, not just in the site glass, which on the Camhead is actually glass, but throughout the oil.

This is one of the main reasons manufacturers have different oil change intervals for vehicles which do a lot of low speed and in town miles. Air cooled motors usually do not have as big an issue with this if they get regular work-outs.

The only way to limit and prevent this is to get the motor fully hot for enough time to burn off the water and have it be expelled through the crank case breather. On older cars you could pull the breather and see the light chocolate sludge that was water/oil mix.

Jim
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Old 01-31-2013, 06:45 PM   #43
def
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Water come not only in the form of condensation but from the fuel as well.
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Old 01-31-2013, 07:22 PM   #44
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Water come not only in the form of condensation but from the fuel as well.
It certainly can.

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Old 01-31-2013, 07:46 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimVonBaden View Post
It certainly can.

Jim
Obviously when I referred to the "inside of a motor [crankcase]" I recognized that condensation would occur not just on the sight glass but the metal surfaces inside the motor. My difficultly is in believing that internal volume of the motor can contain enough moisture to contaminate the oil even though the hot air within the motor contains more moisture as a gas than the outside air. And yes, it will go to the liquid phase on cooling. But in my mind the gas volume needed to contaminate the oil would require a large volume/quantity of saturated warm air not found in a boxer motor because the motor's internal volume is too low. Yes it is accumulative, but only until the next time you run it up to full operating temp. Which is not tough to do on my motor.

As for the fuel contributing to the moisture inside an engine, yes if the rings are not preventing blow-by. Combustion does produce water and ethanol can contain more water than non-ethanol.

All academic; if your oil if frothing, something is out of whack. If it is discolored, it is out of whack. That part is not rocket science; pay the price and have it analyzed [what $20?].
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