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Old 01-30-2013, 11:12 PM   #31
MeterPig
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What possible outcomes would be the lesser of two Prarie chickens?


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Old 01-30-2013, 11:26 PM   #32
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This thread is useless without pics




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Old 01-31-2013, 02:27 PM   #33
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I went to Montrose's Gunnison Sage Grouse public meeting last night. We listened for 45 minutes about all the areas to ride that we were probably going to lose if, in March, they chose to make it an endangered species. The U.S. Fish and Game allowed exactly ONE question from the packed house before deciding the meeting was over. So much for listening to the public's input!
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Old 01-31-2013, 02:55 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by San Juan Servant View Post
I went to Montrose's Gunnison Sage Grouse public meeting last night. We listened for 45 minutes about all the areas to ride that we were probably going to lose if, in March, they chose to make it an endangered species. The U.S. Fish and Game allowed exactly ONE question from the packed house before deciding the meeting was over. So much for listening to the public's input!
OK...U.S. F&G apparently gets to make the decision as to an animal being classified as endagered. So, they have a public meeting and take one question from a packed house. Not wanting to be totally negative about that, but does that reaction sound like their mind is made up?

OK...next question...USF&G is under the Interior Dept...hence under Salazar. Does anyone really think Salazar, or whoever replaces him, will give any consideration to off road activity?
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Old 01-31-2013, 03:00 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by San Juan Servant View Post
I went to Montrose's Gunnison Sage Grouse public meeting last night. We listened for 45 minutes about all the areas to ride that we were probably going to lose if, in March, they chose to make it an endangered species. The U.S. Fish and Game allowed exactly ONE question from the packed house before deciding the meeting was over. So much for listening to the public's input!
Did they say how listing would effect travel on existing Forest Service roads that are on the latest MVUM? From the earlier link on the Sage Grouse thread, it appeared that roads wouldn't be effected...
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Old 01-31-2013, 03:41 PM   #36
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They were as vague as possible. Just full of "possibles" like possibly no more home developments, power lines, grazing, off road riding, camping or just hiking through the valleys. Apparently elk, deer, racoons, coyotes and badgers are no threat to the ground bird's nests - only humans.
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Old 01-31-2013, 03:49 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by San Juan Servant View Post
They were as vague as possible. Just full of "possibles" like possibly no more home developments, power lines, grazing, off road riding, camping or just hiking through the valleys. Apparently elk, deer, racoons, coyotes and badgers are no threat to the ground bird's nests - only humans.
So much for going through all the comment BS for the MVUM; it can just get tossed out anyway. I ride a few of those areas often, and I can honestly say, I've never seen a Sage grouse nesting in any of the roads.
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Old 01-31-2013, 04:04 PM   #38
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There is one public input meeting left in the big city of Dove Creek tonight. I hope they actually take questions from the crowd and at least pretend to write down their opinions.
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Old 02-01-2013, 09:37 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by San Juan Servant View Post
There is one public input meeting left in the big city of Dove Creek tonight. I hope they actually take questions from the crowd and at least pretend to write down their opinions.
FYI, if you ever need to win an appeal on a decision that you don't agree with, you need to nail them on violation of the NEPA processes. To do this, you need to become very familiar with CFR regulations. Simply claiming bias isn't sufficient.

IMO, CDOW is the most anti-OHV government organization we have to content with. They don't seem to play with with the USFS or BLM either.
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Old 02-02-2013, 03:21 AM   #40
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You 2 can throw down at the Festival: http://www.wildlife.state.nm.us/recr...tival_2012.pdf
that's where I'm from. if those birds are put on the endangered list in that area, it wouldn't pretty. that area is mostly private, but they would still restrict most usage of the land, which basically amounts to government confiscation of property without compensation.

the NM fish and game has already greatly reduced access to all the land they have in the area (most if not all of which was donated with the understanding that public access was to be maintained).

also, this is just the latest in a series of shit. first, it was a damn lizard that is being out-competed by other lizards (survival of the fittest ring any bells?). that's still on-again, off again. Texas and the oil companies keep fighting it off. next up, it was a species of prairie dog that was hit especially hard by bubonic plague outbreaks (rally to save the plague carriers, that's the ticket!). that got squashed pretty well by then-Gov. Bush. now it's the prairie chicken. the state, the fed, and the conservancy have all been advising the locals on how to take steps to prove that they are helping with the recovery and thereby stave off a listing, but all it takes is the whim of some faceless bureaucrat to set the ball rolling again.

also, it's likely that past population levels were actually abnormally high. the homesteaders out there were required to farm their land to keep it. later on, many of the ranchers used to grow grain to feed their cattle. the farming activity also fed the prairie chickens. all that land ended up in the soil bank by the time I hit high school, and the prairie chicken population dropped like a rock. go figure.

anyhow, the upshot to all this is that I am firmly of the opinion that endangered species listings should be fought under most any circumstance, as the ESA is being used to pretty much force people off public and private land.
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Old 02-02-2013, 11:54 AM   #41
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Will chik-fil-a be offering a lesser chicken sandwich?


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Old 02-03-2013, 09:05 AM   #42
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Like the Gunnison Sage Grouse, the Lesser Praire Chicken has been declining in numbers for years and in both cases it seems unlikely that listing of either species will have much affect on OHV activity...and if listing did affect OHV use, I don't have a problem providing undisturbed habitat for an endangered/threatened species.
Truth be told, The Lesser Prairie Chicken is dying off due to terminal self-esteem issues, because someone labelled it as "lesser".
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Old 02-05-2013, 01:39 PM   #43
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Tomorrow night in Monticello - Federal Fish and Wildlife will get an ear full. Here is a preview.


Sagebrush Coalition Meeting
The Gunnison Sage Grouse has now been placed on the endangered species list, which means that private property owners who have the bird or who have potential habitat will be regulated in what they can do on their own private property. A property owner will be charged with a federal felony if they do anything on their own property that infringes on the rights of the bird. The government refers to any detriment of habitat as a “taking” which seem ironic, since it is the federal government that is prohibited from “taking” property by regulating it into non use. We thought it was intolerable when they did this on public property, but now it is the private land owner that will be criminalized for acts done on his own land.
Citizens have 60 days in which to respond. I recently said to the soil conservation group that resistance is in order. When I said that a revolt is coming but that this may not be the time and Sage Grouse may not be the issue, several in the group responded that this is the time and Sage Grouse is the issue.
County’s were formed for a purpose. As sub-units of the state, we have delegated jurisdiction of the land and water, plants and animals, that lie within our borders. The injustice of this type of action has become so commonplace that most citizens actually believe that the federal government has authority to frustrate and dictate – they don’t – unless we grant them such by our inaction. I am not an enemy of the Sage Chickens. They have done nothing to warrant our disdain. But the federal government needs know that their invasion in violation of the constitutional contract will not be tolerated in San Juan County or in Utah.
Whether we are successful in defending our rights or not is no longer the question. The real question is if we are willing to stand up for our rights in the face of a tyrannical government. If we do not act now, we will be unable to act later. San Juan County, and the rest of the nation, is under siege. From the Greater Canyonlands proposal, to the infringement of our 2nd Amendment rights, to the inaction of congress to dispose of pubic land, to the endangered species act, or FLPMA, or NEPA, or the printing of baseless currency, or borrowing our nation into bankruptcy, or any of the other innovative ways Washington has devised to separate us from our property, we have only ourselves to blame if we remain in the tranquility of voluntary servitude.
That is what this meeting is about. You are invited!
Yours,
Phil
PS – Invite others at your discretion
Our next meeting is in Monticello, Utah, February 6, 6:30 PM in the San Juan County Commission Chambers.
117 South Main Street.
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Old 02-05-2013, 06:43 PM   #44
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You lost me at "the inaction of congress to dispose of pubic land." Thank god (and government) we have public land, otherwise there'd be NO place to ride. Ever try to ride in west Texas?

No thanks.
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Old 02-05-2013, 07:03 PM   #45
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You lost me at "the inaction of congress to dispose of pubic land." Thank god (and government) we have public land, otherwise there'd be NO place to ride. Ever try to ride in west Texas?

No thanks.
C'mon, Duke...it ain't that bad. West Texas alone has about 1.5 million acres of fairly remote land that allows a heck of a lot of riding.

But having tons of public lands out west to ride on is a great blessing indeed...at least while we have it.
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