The XL600 thread - Page 457

brokeagain · 01-30-2013, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davek181

I prefer simplicity myself, the less there is, the less there is to go wrong. i also like the idea of splitting the lights, one AC, one DC for the fact that you are drawing on two different sources available without overloading either. The DC side is relatively unused except for signals, brake and tail and instrument lights.

I would leave one headlight as stock, through the switch and wiring you already have, the AC light would function as normal. The DC light I would run through a relay from the fused and switched battery source available. I would use a 5 prong relay with the 87a and 87 connectors on them. The relay connects 87a while at rest and 87 when activated. Connect the low beam to the 87 and when you turn on the key low beam will come on automatically if you have it wired from 30 to 87a. (alternately you could mount a separate switch to be able to turn off that light independently)

For high beam I would trigger the relay from the existing high beam switch wire through terminals 86 and 85. Both lights will come on automatically, though the AC light will have to wait for the engine, and switch to high beam with the one stock switch.

If you were to change your signals and tail and instrument lights to LED as I have it would also free up more amperage for other options, such as heated grips, while not overloading anything.

Sounds good in theory in my muddled brain, the only grey area I can think of is whether the relay will trip on an AC source, haven't experimented with that yet. I suppose you could add a diode in the switching circuit to straighten out the waveform if needed.

Just my $.02

Thanks for the advice and details. I'll mock up a 'wiring diagram' and post it here for feedback. I think there are AC relays as well as DC relays, but I think the DC relays are the ones that you can easily get at an auto parts store. I also think that I could get a small reg/rec to go inline from there to convert it DC, but that's just conjecture at this point.

The main thing I was worried about was the blue wire from the switch to the highbeams, as I'm not sure if it supplies current or acts as a ground, though I don't think it does...

I think I'm going to do the AC/DC light route though, as it'll allow the bike to return to stock like I want, and might allow for a brighter light on the DC side from the lack of draw from the DC side of the system (basically only the taillight and signals).

davek181 · 01-30-2013, 06:50 AM

The blue wire is power, the headlight is grounded to the system and powered to turn on. That is why I suggested that as a relay trigger. No matter either way, a relay can be grounded to turn on also though I prefer the other way. I have seen in auotomotive applications where headlights are powered and switch on through grounding, though in my experience that method seems more problematic for some reason.

Carter Pewterschmidt · 01-30-2013, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MentalGuru

You should ride a built one sometime...

Speaking of which my head is done.

MentalGuru · 01-30-2013, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carter Pewterschmidt

Speaking of which my head is done.

So what magic did the Wizard do???

Carter Pewterschmidt · 01-30-2013, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MentalGuru

So what magic did the Wizard do???

Milled and decked the head surface, new bronze guides, seals, with some port and bowl work. Should be fun!

MentalGuru · 01-30-2013, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carter Pewterschmidt

Milled and decked the head surface, new bronze guides, seals, with some port and bowl work. Should be fun!

Nice... That should work great with your cam. That engine was a beast.

Your engine should really be wild when you're done.

Your face will hurt from the smile you'll have...

m2h · 01-30-2013, 12:39 PM

[QUOTE=Moparmanpete;20575261]I now have a hole in my new pair of boots from kicking it over so much. Carb problems right now and I'm taking a break from it for a while.

The website is now called partzilla.com it was called powersportsplus.com
This search is for an 87 but "SHOULD" be the same
Cam chain tensioner seal #14
http://www.partzilla.com/parts/searc...NER/parts.html

Decompression valve shaft seal #14 "now this is the right side seal for the later model engines"
http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Honda/

You;re a top man Pete! Just as I;m contemplating having to do a rebuild you;ve put up the partzilla site

Prices are way less than NZ even with the exchange rate and freight. Pulled the motor down and found scoring in the bore plus the wrist pin wobbly in the rod. So the old dilema " How far do i go?' Decided to do the whole thing while i;m there and f#@k the expense. Started this bike as project to maybe make a few bucks and its cost me shitloads,

way more than its worth!! Will have to ride it for the next 100 years to get some value out of it!!.
Never mind have enjoyed working on it

By the way thanks to all you guys for the great input to this thread. Not only the technical help but also the friendly comments and humour!! Cheers for that.

M2H

brokeagain · 01-30-2013, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davek181

The blue wire is power, the headlight is grounded to the system and powered to turn on. That is why I suggested that as a relay trigger. No matter either way, a relay can be grounded to turn on also though I prefer the other way. I have seen in auotomotive applications where headlights are powered and switch on through grounding, though in my experience that method seems more problematic for some reason.

Mmk, here goes nothing.

So I drew up a plan:

So, more questions. Do the AC and DC side need to be grounded at different points? I believe the lighting coil ground goes to the frame (I have the Ricky Stator), should the DC grounds also go to the frame, or should I ground them to the negative battery terminal...? Not sure.

Thinking out loud here: the DC low beam should come on with the keyed ignition switch, and the power feed should be spliced in somewhere after the ignition switch (and therefore after the reg/rec and fuse). When the high beam switch on the handlebars is turned on, the AC high beam turns on, as well as make the electomagnet flip the relay switch and turn on the DC high beam.

Look/sound okay? Anyone with any experience with this think that I'm going to let the magic smoke out of my electrical system?

davek181 · 01-31-2013, 05:27 AM

That is exactly how I envisioned it and tried to relate it. As I said the only things I can think of is AC switching on the relay, and fusing. You did mention an AC relay which I hadn't thought of, but I would probably try the standard relay first for ease of availability and cheapness. For simplicity running the DC light off the ignition switch connection is best, but over time may overload the switch contacts. Another conventional relay switched off the ignition to turn on the light would be a better answer, but that entails more wires and additional fusing. The load on the switch in that case would be the minimal current needed to activate the relay. While you were going through that trouble too, you could easily add another switch to turn the DC light off and on if desired. On the relay you can either switch the hot or ground side whichever is easiest to do.

Grounds are grounds, both systems ground to the frame and don't care if they share a connection. I don't mind adding a redundant ground or two even without modifications. For instance, you might think handlebars would ground well, and they do for the most part, but if you think about it the ground path goes through the steering head bearings. I used the bars as a ground for my heated grips since it was so easy and have had no troubles. I figured at the time I did it that worst case scenario was no heated grips, but not a case where it would make me have to push the bike home.

That is part of my thinking always. First simplicity and light weight, then reliability. The system we are designing for your bike as it stands now could go up in smoke and die if shorted out and unfused properly but the machine would still run since the ignition system is completely untouched. I have ridden out of the mountains in darkness using what I could see from my riding buddy's headlight, but I rode out. (turned out to be a bad ground on my headlight in that instance, remember redundant grounds are good things)

brokeagain · 01-31-2013, 10:50 AM

Alright. Here's a revision.

Please excuse all my questions, I'm new to electrical system mods. I can replace stock stuff, but as far as planning goes, I've never done this before.

Is the negative battery terminal an acceptable ground? And I think from what you stated before, I can just take all the grounds from this circuit and combine them into one wire to ground somewhere?

Good call with the additional relay, it shouldn't be too much of a problem to include it. From what I had been reading, I believe the current draw to charge the relay coil is only around 0.1A (coil resistance dependent).

The 65W high beam on the DC side should be pulling around 8A, so the relays should be able to easily handle that. Is 20A an acceptable fuse value? 15 might be a little better, but I don't want to be blowing fuses very often.

Also, I was thinking about housing all of this in a waterproof box somewhere behind the headlight, to include the other wiring that is exposed with the Ruckus headlight setup.

If you see any other issues with this, I'm willing to take all the free advice I can get! Otherwise, I'm going to start wiring some stuff together soon.

Thanks again!

davek181 · 01-31-2013, 12:53 PM

Looks good. Your drawing skills have improved greatly too. I would have drawn one for you if I were smart enough to do it.

That is exactly what I had pictured in my mind, alternatively on either the ground or hot side of the additional relay from the ignition switch feed you could put a switch to be able to turn that light of if desired. I usually switch the ground side so that if a wire chafes and wears through to ground it just switches the relay on rather than blowing fuses. On that same note, fuse any circuit you use as close to the source as you can so the unfused section of wire is as short as possible. If there is a short in the wire before the fuse you will get smoke, so leave the possible exposure at a minimum.

I would think a 15 amp fuse would be good enough. 20 amp is getting into wire frying country with the gauge of wire we are dealing with in my opinion.

A ground is a ground and it all goes back to the negative terminal of the battery. As I stated earlier a redundant ground from the frame to the battery wouldn't hurt anything. ( I don't like to put all my eggs in one basket, so to speak)

A box behind the headlight if there is room for it is fine, just remember that the steering will flex any wires that turn with the fork so try to keep that to a minimum too. Mount the box stationary to the steering head if possible and have only the necessary wire flexing. Another possibility I would employ on my bike is that I would use the area where my battery used to reside for an electrical box that could hold a couple of relays and wiring needed. Though you would still have to run a minimum of three wires forward in that case.

Ask all the questions you want, I don't mind answering ones that I can. I know many others on the site feel the same way, so if I can't answer, or answer wrong, someone will set the record straight gladly. Much better to plan ahead and do it right the first time.

brokeagain · 01-31-2013, 01:28 PM

Straight lines will do wonders to improve the quality of a technical drawing!

Again, thanks for the advice. Once I gather most everything, I feel like putting this together won't be a big deal.

Pics/write-up to follow!

Stretchah · 02-01-2013, 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MentalGuru

I suspect a fork swap has been done. Maybe CR forks and lower with them machined to fit the stock upper. Measure the tubes at both clamps (some cartidge forks neck down between the triple clamps). Measure the axle size to see if it is 15 or 17mm in size.

Just curious...

Hey Guys, Have been doing a little more digging and it looks like the 86, 87, 88 CR500 forks were made like this by Honda i.e. dropping in size as you go up the fork, 43mm botttom yoke and 41mm top. here's a pic of an 87 and you can clearly see the line where it changes thye same as mine....

The 86 - 88 ones are cartridge forks and from what I've read the XR600 ones were based on and pretty much the same as these, but, without the size difference in stem diameter. Going by this bit of blurb I found trawling and more photo's I've found the CR250 ones seem to be the same from 86 - 87, not sure if there was a length difference though. Apparently the axle size is 17mm, but, I will check this with mine...

"By 1987, the conventional forks were developed to a very high level and
most agree the 87 cartridge forks on the CR250 and 500 were some of the
best ever offered on any production bike. In 1988, Honda switched to the
upside down forks (89 for the 500) and it was all down hill for many years.
It's the same as the debate about Steel vs. Aluminum frames, not everyone
is convinced the switch to Aluminum was a good idea. In fact in 97, if I
remember correctly, Suzuki switched back to conventional forks on the RMs."

It seems it might give us another option for upgrades and I will pull my finger out and measure that axle

Carter Pewterschmidt · 02-01-2013, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stretchah

Hey Guys, Have been doing a little more digging and it looks like the 86, 87, 88 CR500 forks were made like this by Honda i.e. dropping in size as you go up the fork, 43mm botttom yoke and 41mm top. here's a pic of an 87 and you can clearly see the line where it changes thye same as mine....

The 86 - 88 ones are cartridge forks and from what I've read the XR600 ones were based on and pretty much the same as these, but, without the size difference in stem diameter. Going by this bit of blurb I found trawling and more photo's I've found the CR250 ones seem to be the same from 86 - 87, not sure if there was a length difference though. Apparently the axle size is 17mm, but, I will check this with mine...

"By 1987, the conventional forks were developed to a very high level and
most agree the 87 cartridge forks on the CR250 and 500 were some of the
best ever offered on any production bike. In 1988, Honda switched to the
upside down forks (89 for the 500) and it was all down hill for many years.
It's the same as the debate about Steel vs. Aluminum frames, not everyone
is convinced the switch to Aluminum was a good idea. In fact in 97, if I
remember correctly, Suzuki switched back to conventional forks on the RMs."

It seems it might give us another option for upgrades and I will pull my finger out and measure that axle

Thanks for that. Might have to keep this fork swap in mind.

davek181 · 02-01-2013, 12:44 PM

I have a spare set of 85 CR500 forks laying around. It is stepped also on the top. I measured the axle on it and it is 17mm in size. I compared the axle on an 87 model through an online lookup and they all use the same axle those years. So it is confirmed 17mm axle, 6003 bearings.

01-31-2013, 10:50 AM	#6850
brokeagain Adventurer Joined: Aug 2012 Oddometer: 49	Dual Headlight Plan - 2 Alright. Here's a revision. Please excuse all my questions, I'm new to electrical system mods. I can replace stock stuff, but as far as planning goes, I've never done this before. Is the negative battery terminal an acceptable ground? And I think from what you stated before, I can just take all the grounds from this circuit and combine them into one wire to ground somewhere? Good call with the additional relay, it shouldn't be too much of a problem to include it. From what I had been reading, I believe the current draw to charge the relay coil is only around 0.1A (coil resistance dependent). The 65W high beam on the DC side should be pulling around 8A, so the relays should be able to easily handle that. Is 20A an acceptable fuse value? 15 might be a little better, but I don't want to be blowing fuses very often. Also, I was thinking about housing all of this in a waterproof box somewhere behind the headlight, to include the other wiring that is exposed with the Ruckus headlight setup. If you see any other issues with this, I'm willing to take all the free advice I can get! Otherwise, I'm going to start wiring some stuff together soon. Thanks again!

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01-30-2013, 06:50 AM	#6842
davek181 Gnarly Adventurer Joined: Aug 2007 Location: Idaho Oddometer: 223	The blue wire is power, the headlight is grounded to the system and powered to turn on. That is why I suggested that as a relay trigger. No matter either way, a relay can be grounded to turn on also though I prefer the other way. I have seen in auotomotive applications where headlights are powered and switch on through grounding, though in my experience that method seems more problematic for some reason.

01-30-2013, 12:39 PM	#6847
m2h "Old guys rule" Joined: Nov 2012 Location: Waipu New Zealand Oddometer: 53	[QUOTE=Moparmanpete;20575261]I now have a hole in my new pair of boots from kicking it over so much. Carb problems right now and I'm taking a break from it for a while. The website is now called partzilla.com it was called powersportsplus.com This search is for an 87 but "SHOULD" be the same Cam chain tensioner seal #14 http://www.partzilla.com/parts/searc...NER/parts.html Decompression valve shaft seal #14 "now this is the right side seal for the later model engines" http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Honda/ You;re a top man Pete! Just as I;m contemplating having to do a rebuild you;ve put up the partzilla site Prices are way less than NZ even with the exchange rate and freight. Pulled the motor down and found scoring in the bore plus the wrist pin wobbly in the rod. So the old dilema " How far do i go?' Decided to do the whole thing while i;m there and f#@k the expense. Started this bike as project to maybe make a few bucks and its cost me shitloads, way more than its worth!! Will have to ride it for the next 100 years to get some value out of it!!. Never mind have enjoyed working on it By the way thanks to all you guys for the great input to this thread. Not only the technical help but also the friendly comments and humour!! Cheers for that. M2H

01-31-2013, 05:27 AM	#6849
davek181 Gnarly Adventurer Joined: Aug 2007 Location: Idaho Oddometer: 223	That is exactly how I envisioned it and tried to relate it. As I said the only things I can think of is AC switching on the relay, and fusing. You did mention an AC relay which I hadn't thought of, but I would probably try the standard relay first for ease of availability and cheapness. For simplicity running the DC light off the ignition switch connection is best, but over time may overload the switch contacts. Another conventional relay switched off the ignition to turn on the light would be a better answer, but that entails more wires and additional fusing. The load on the switch in that case would be the minimal current needed to activate the relay. While you were going through that trouble too, you could easily add another switch to turn the DC light off and on if desired. On the relay you can either switch the hot or ground side whichever is easiest to do. Grounds are grounds, both systems ground to the frame and don't care if they share a connection. I don't mind adding a redundant ground or two even without modifications. For instance, you might think handlebars would ground well, and they do for the most part, but if you think about it the ground path goes through the steering head bearings. I used the bars as a ground for my heated grips since it was so easy and have had no troubles. I figured at the time I did it that worst case scenario was no heated grips, but not a case where it would make me have to push the bike home. That is part of my thinking always. First simplicity and light weight, then reliability. The system we are designing for your bike as it stands now could go up in smoke and die if shorted out and unfused properly but the machine would still run since the ignition system is completely untouched. I have ridden out of the mountains in darkness using what I could see from my riding buddy's headlight, but I rode out. (turned out to be a bad ground on my headlight in that instance, remember redundant grounds are good things)

01-31-2013, 12:53 PM	#6851
davek181 Gnarly Adventurer Joined: Aug 2007 Location: Idaho Oddometer: 223	Looks good. Your drawing skills have improved greatly too. I would have drawn one for you if I were smart enough to do it. That is exactly what I had pictured in my mind, alternatively on either the ground or hot side of the additional relay from the ignition switch feed you could put a switch to be able to turn that light of if desired. I usually switch the ground side so that if a wire chafes and wears through to ground it just switches the relay on rather than blowing fuses. On that same note, fuse any circuit you use as close to the source as you can so the unfused section of wire is as short as possible. If there is a short in the wire before the fuse you will get smoke, so leave the possible exposure at a minimum. I would think a 15 amp fuse would be good enough. 20 amp is getting into wire frying country with the gauge of wire we are dealing with in my opinion. A ground is a ground and it all goes back to the negative terminal of the battery. As I stated earlier a redundant ground from the frame to the battery wouldn't hurt anything. ( I don't like to put all my eggs in one basket, so to speak) A box behind the headlight if there is room for it is fine, just remember that the steering will flex any wires that turn with the fork so try to keep that to a minimum too. Mount the box stationary to the steering head if possible and have only the necessary wire flexing. Another possibility I would employ on my bike is that I would use the area where my battery used to reside for an electrical box that could hold a couple of relays and wiring needed. Though you would still have to run a minimum of three wires forward in that case. Ask all the questions you want, I don't mind answering ones that I can. I know many others on the site feel the same way, so if I can't answer, or answer wrong, someone will set the record straight gladly. Much better to plan ahead and do it right the first time.

01-31-2013, 01:28 PM	#6852
brokeagain Adventurer Joined: Aug 2012 Oddometer: 49	Straight lines will do wonders to improve the quality of a technical drawing! Again, thanks for the advice. Once I gather most everything, I feel like putting this together won't be a big deal. Pics/write-up to follow!

02-01-2013, 12:44 PM	#6855
davek181 Gnarly Adventurer Joined: Aug 2007 Location: Idaho Oddometer: 223	I have a spare set of 85 CR500 forks laying around. It is stepped also on the top. I measured the axle on it and it is 17mm in size. I compared the axle on an 87 model through an online lookup and they all use the same axle those years. So it is confirmed 17mm axle, 6003 bearings.