The Sandbox Oil Change Discussion

[Flashdog]

Originally Posted by Ginger Beard

Atmosphere
Digable Planets
De La Sole
Mos Def
Tribe Called Quest
Lupe Fiasco

etc,etc,etc.

It's not all mindless asshats spewing out stupidity like womanizing and slinging dope...


Gangster Rap and Hip Hop aren't the same thing. There is good and bad in every genre.

Thanks, that crap you posted is talentless garbage too. Sorry but I can't see any positive influences in the whole so-called culture. America needs to treat the hip hop/thug culture and ideals like we have the KKK and nazis and recognise them for what they are. There was a time when smoking and segragation was the accepted norm. It was wrong and now we've changed that perception. We need to do the same with the culture that has brought us Eminem and 50cent.

[Ginger Beard]

Originally Posted by Flashdog

Thanks, that crap you posted is talentless garbage too. Sorry but I can't see any positive influences in the whole so-called culture. America needs to treat the hip hop/thug culture and ideals like we have the KKK and nazis and recognise them for what they are. There was a time when smoking and segragation was the accepted norm. It was wrong and now we've changed that perception. We need to do the same with the culture that has brought us Eminem and 50cent.

With all due respect to you I have to say that disliking something does not make it talentless garbage. I am sure that many would view the music you prefer as garbage and they would more than likely be equally wrong (unless it's country or opera of course. ) .

I actually agree with the anti thug sentiment. The glorification of violence, womanizing ,etc is disturbing to say the least but it is hard to distinguish between the cause and the symptom. It's very much a chicken or the egg scenario. There is no comparison between hate groups and hip-hop by any stretch of the imagination. While there are those that use the art form to send negative messages , there are many that try to use their music to put forth messages that they hope will spark positive thought or discussion by those that are willing to listen. I am under the impression that you did not listen to the song I posted or you would have, at the very least, understood that there was nothing promoting a thug mentality contained in it. The majority of the song is sociopolitical commentary and insightful commentary at that. Put aside your preconceived notions and your dislike for the "type' of music being played and try listening to the message in the lyrics. You may even find that this particular artist is doing his best to try and change the culture from within. The method that you propose ( that of isolation and denigration ) is not going to do anything other than fuel the fire already lit by the hate filled idiots within the scene. Add to that the fact that there is bitter irony in wanting to use KKK style tactics against those that you would compare to the Klan and it's a losing proposition.

This song by Lupe actually attacks the negativity within the scene and does so quite unabashedly. I see this as being a very positive message. I particularly enjoy the comparison of the modern thug image to that of the old timey black face...It seems a great trick to force people to shackle themselves with a stereotype. the gangster mentality is the new slavery only this time people are being duped into doing it to themselves rather than wade in water as it were.




On a side note much of what is fueling the antigunners is mass shootings. Those shooters tend to be white suburbanites so it seems a bit off base to place so much blame on the hip-hop scene. We have a culture of violence in the USA and it is made more potent by the fact that we have a terrible system for dealing with the mentally ill and criminals. It's like a big ass catch and release for lunatics.

Enough of the threadjacking. Take car man.

.

[jaydee1445]

First I've heard of this, needs to be researched but sounds like the trump card against gun control. Dick Act of 1902

[N-m]

Originally Posted by jaydee1445

First I've heard of this, needs to be researched but sounds like the trump card against gun control. Dick Act of 1902

According to some in the legal industry this has been researched...and debunked as false.

[Buzztail]

This has been around for awhile, and I feel like it may add to this discussion:

The Parable of the Sheep

by Charles Riggs

Not so long ago and in a pasture too uncomfortably close to here, a flock of sheep lived and grazed. They were protected by a dog, who answered to the master, but despite his best efforts from time to time a nearby pack of wolves would prey upon the flock.

One day a group of sheep, bolder than the rest, met to discuss their dilemma. "Our dog is good, and vigilant, but he is one and the wolves are many. The wolves he catches are not always killed, and the master judges and releases many to prey again upon us, for no reason we can understand. What can we do? We are sheep, but we do not wish to be food, too!"

One sheep spoke up, saying "It is his teeth and claws that make the wolf so terrible to us. It is his nature to prey, and he would find any way to do it, but it is the tools he wields that make it possible. If we had such teeth, we could fight back, and stop this savagery." The other sheep clamored in agreement, and they went together to the old bones of the dead wolves heaped in the corner of the pasture, and gathered fang and claw and made them into weapons.

That night, when the wolves came, the newly armed sheep sprang up with their weapons and struck at them, crying, "Begone! We are not food!" and drove off the wolves, who were astonished. When did sheep become so bold and so dangerous to wolves? When did sheep grow teeth? It was unthinkable!

The next day, flush with victory and waving their weapons, they approached the flock to pronounce their discovery. But as they drew nigh, the flock huddled together and cried out, "Baaaaaaaadddd! Baaaaaddd things! You have bad things! We are afraid! You are not sheep!"

The brave sheep stopped, amazed. "But we are your brethren!" they cried. "We are still sheep, but we do not wish to be food. See, our new teeth and claws protect us and have saved us from slaughter. They do not make us into wolves, they make us equal to the wolves, and safe from their viciousness!"

"Baaaaaaad!" cried the flock, "the things are bad and will pervert you, and we fear them. You cannot bring them into the flock!" So the armed sheep resolved to conceal their weapons, for although they had no desire to panic the flock, they wished to remain in the fold. But they would not return to those nights of terror, waiting for the wolves to come.

In time, the wolves attacked less often and sought easier prey, for they had no stomach for fighting sheep who possessed tooth and claw even as they did. Not knowing which sheep had fangs and which did not, they came to leave sheep out of their diet almost completely except for the occasional raid, from which more than one wolf did not return.

Then came the day when, as the flock grazed beside the stream, one sheep’s weapon slipped from the folds of her fleece, and the flock cried out in terror again, "Baaaaaad! You still possess these evil things! We must ban you from our presence!"

And so they did. The great chief sheep and his council, encouraged by the words of their advisors, placed signs and totems at the edges of the pasture forbidding the presence of hidden weapons there. The armed sheep protested before the council, saying, "It is our pasture, too, and we have never harmed you! When can you say we have caused you hurt? It is the wolves, not we, who prey upon you. We are still sheep, but we are not food!" But the flock drowned them out with cries of "Baaaaaaddd! We will not hear your clever words! You and your things are evil and will harm us!"

Saddened by this rejection, the armed sheep moved off and spent their days on the edges of the flock, trying from time to time to speak with their brethren to convince them of the wisdom of having such teeth, but meeting with little success. They found it hard to talk to those who, upon hearing their words, would roll back their eyes and flee, crying "Baaaaddd! Bad things!"

That night, the wolves happened upon the sheep’s totems and signs, and said, "Truly, these sheep are fools! They have told us they have no teeth! Brothers, let us feed!" And they set upon the flock, and horrible was the carnage in the midst of the fold. The dog fought like a demon, and often seemed to be in two places at once, but even he could not halt the slaughter.

It was only when the other sheep arrived with their weapons that the wolves fled, only to remain on the edge of the pasture and wait for the next time they could prey, for if the sheep were so foolish once, they would be so again. This they did, and do still.

In the morning, the armed sheep spoke to the flock, and said, "See? If the wolves know you have no teeth, they will fall upon you. Why be prey? To be a sheep does not mean to be food for wolves!" But the flock cried out, more feebly for their voices were fewer, though with no less terror, "Baaaaaaaad! These things are bad! If they were banished, the wolves would not harm us! Baaaaaaad!"

So they resolved to retain their weapons, but to conceal them from the flock; to endure their fear and loathing, and even to protect their brethren if the need arose, until the day the flock learned to understand that as long as there were wolves in the night, sheep would need teeth to repel them.

They would still be sheep, but they would not be food!

[Buzztail]

too long. didn't read.

[newcastleadam]

Originally Posted by Buzztail

too long. didn't read.

TLDR

[Buzztail]

[Ginger Beard]

I was having a gun discussion with someone yesterday and it dawned on me that I have yet to hear a reasonable/rational answer to several questions.

1) Why push for regulations so similar to those that were a proven failure during the Clinton admin ? What has changed that would make these new regs work ?

2) How do these new regulations provide guaranteed safety for our society to the point that I should be comfortable in giving up my rights ?

3) Knowing the definitions of both criminal and mentally ill, how do these new regulation stop both criminals and the mentally ill from acquiring illegal weapons or using some other type of weapon to commit horrible violent crimes ?

4) How would a round limit regulation prevent someone from simply carrying more clips rather than more rounds in one clip ?

Anyone here have any leads to some type of explanation of the above ?

[Buzztail]

Originally Posted by Ginger Beard

I was having a gun discussion with someone yesterday and it dawned on me that I have yet to hear a reasonable/rational answer to several questions.

1) Why push for regulations so similar to those that were a proven failure during the Clinton admin ? What has changed that would make these new regs work ? These regs are deeper reaching, but will do nothing to stop crime. It's a stepping stone that must be laid to move forward- revoke 2a is the goal long term

2) How do these new regulations provide guaranteed safety for our society to the point that I should be comfortable in giving up my rights ?
They do nothing to provide safety, and you should never feel comfortable giving up any right laid out in ink, and secured with blood.
3) Knowing the definitions of both criminal and mentally ill, how do these new regulation stop both criminals and the mentally ill from acquiring illegal weapons or using some other type of weapon to commit horrible violent crimes ? They do nothing to stop those who live outside the law from aquiring what they want and then from doing harm.

4) How would a round limit regulation prevent someone from simply carrying more clips rather than more rounds in one clip ?
This one is interesting. I know where this comes from- Active shooter scenarios. While they point being made it that when reloading there is a "pause in the action" that would allow some active (yet unarmed) resistance to the threat. I do not buy this for a second, and is akin to telling students to throw books at someone in their classroom firing at them. SCREW THAT. My kid needs to hit the deck, or return fire, but never bring Thoreau to a gun fight.
Also it lends itself to a simple change in tactics to minimize down time. Known as a NY Reload

New York reload (plural New York reloads)

1. The act of drawing a second handgun when the first jams or runs out of bullets, rather than reloading the first, in order to gain a speed advantage.

Anyone here have any leads to some type of explanation of the above ?

This help?

[Ginger Beard]

Originally Posted by Buzztail

This help?

Not at all.

Those are all of the same thoughts that I have had regarding those questions which is why I feel that there is no reason or anything rational being proposed as an answer to these questions. I guess that I am just mystified that others do not ask these questions of themselves before trying to convince me that I will be better off if I allow the government to control my means of self defense.

[Buzztail]

Here is some good reading. This, and not deer hunting, is what 2A is people.
The Battle of Athens, TN

[Zrexrob]

Gander Mountain flyer came in the mail today....full of really nice firearms...I may need to "Tag" Gander soon

[Philip Kuntz]

Probably get better deals at one of those gun buy backs.

[sfront]

Thought this would be appropriate here.........