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Old 02-03-2013, 04:41 PM   #6841
Rocky TFS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Murray View Post
My apologies for the long-winded discussion, but I hope this explanation will be of some value to our newer Montana owners, or those still trying to make a decision on whether to purchase a Montana.
Not to mention those of us who have had the damn thing for a YEAR!!!!
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Old 02-03-2013, 11:20 PM   #6842
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emoto View Post
Snooker, what I did was to turn off automatic re-routing. This way, if I skip something, the GPS doesn't constantly try to make me go back to it. The downside is that if I get off my route it will not route me back to it, but I can look down at the screen to see where it is and go get over to it. Once I am back on it, the turn prompts will resume.
Thanks to dlh62c as well...

Duh yeah I guess I knew that but forgot it since I wasn't ready until now to experiment more. Only had this a month using it in my cage and trying to figure it out before riding season arrives. Thanks!

Follow up question, so if I have Off Route Recalculation set to Prompted, and when it is off route and prompts me if I want to recalculate route and I answer NO... then later I change my mind and want to have my current route recalculate, how do I do that? Do I have to stop Navigation, then use Where To and pick the same route again and navigate it?
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Old 02-03-2013, 11:39 PM   #6843
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On the map screen if I recall correctly, the three bar button gives an option to resume navigation

I could be wrong, if so sorry
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Old 02-04-2013, 12:59 AM   #6844
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Originally Posted by TravellingStrom View Post
On the map screen if I recall correctly, the three bar button gives an option to resume navigation

I could be wrong, if so sorry
Mine doesn't.
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Old 02-04-2013, 01:48 AM   #6845
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Via Points vs. Shaping Points

More -- on the definitions of Via Points vs. Shaping Points:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky TFS View Post
Via Point - A point used to create a multipoint route, ..... a via point can be a POI, an existing waypoint/favorite or any other form of location that is searchable on your device...
"Searchable" is the key here to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky TFS View Post
Shaping Point - ... to "shape" a route to go exactly where you want ... you can edit the route's properties to insert Via points (these are not shaping points although they do serve a similar purpose). ... OR ... You can also just use the route tool to click on spots on the map to force the shape of a route. When you do that, you are using a location that does not HAVE to be added to any of the formal databases. It simply inserts the actual coordinates invisibly into the route. These are shaping points.

Shaping points occur in another, automatic, fashion as well. Even when you only designate a two-point route, e.g. go from Point A to Point B, there will usually be multiple places, usually intersections, where a change in direction is required. When building the route, the personal navigation device (or Mapsource/Basecamp) will automatically include all of these points in the route.
By "use the route tool" this must mean the Insert tool (rubber band method). and yes Rocky I appreciate you posting this (and yes you were first also ).

Quote:
Originally Posted by dlh62c View Post
If you right click on the via point, a drop down list will appear that will allow you to change its property to Alert On Arrival or Don't Alert on Arrival (Shaping Point).
I AGREE! This is what makes it a Shaping Point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cablebandit View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emoto View Post
What kind of point does it make if I grab the route with the arrow shaped tool and rubber band it to a road?
Shaping point.
Agreed, you can see in the Properties it defaults to being greyed out and shows it as a shaping point...

...and here is more supporting evidence (sorry if this is REALLY old news)...

I followed the idea on post #6802, originally from KGANSHIRT and at the end he says to File->Export the route to a GPX file and look at it with an editor (like Notepad).
I did this and the GPX file is a type of XML file and you can look around at the tags (for more GPX syntax see examples HERE and the GPX "Syntax" or elements HERE), but basically you see all the Waypoints < wpt > listed at the beginning, then the Route < rte > and inside the route is the series of RoutePoint < rtept > elements which apparently always has the initial Start waypoint and the last Finish waypoint and in between is all the other Via Points (of various subtypes like Shaping Points etc, as I am getting into next).

So in the picture below is an example of a very simple route that shows up in the Route Properties as having 3 Via Points - as we have established, BaseCamp in the Properties tab for a Route, calls everything Via Points, yet we know there are distinctions between the many subtypes of Via Points like Way Points, Shaping points, etc.

In this example I created a Route with a Start Waypoint, a Finish Waypoint, and one Shaping Point in between the 2 (created via the Insert tool (rubber band)). The Insert tool always seems to create a Shaping Point -- you can tell because it is already greyed out and says "(won't alert)" as you can see below, and if you right click on it you do not get the menu option for Don't Alert on Arrival (Shaping Point), instead you get the Alert on Arrival option.

Below you see a Cyan (aqua) colored route in Motorcycling activity profile, then I also saved it as a Blue colored route in the Direct profile, which is selected now:



So now I did File->Export->Export Selection... to export this "selected" Route as a GPX file, and looked at the file in an editor:

I believe I can confirm that BaseCamp's Insert tool has marked this as a Shaping point because in the RoutePoint < rtept > information for this middle point it has an section with the code:
< trp:ShapingPoint / >

If instead I used the + to add a Waypoint then in the < rtept > information it shows it as a ViaPoint:
< trp:ViaPoint >


My conclusions from all of this is we should speak carefully so we can communicate. I suggest the mandatory Start and Finish are Via Points but also happen to be Waypoints, then other points we should say whether they are Via Points OR Shaping Points, even though as you can see above it shows 3 Via Points as they are all under that concept. But we need to speak in specifics. Don't say just Via Point but make sure you say which "kind" of via point.

If I am wrong please correct me!

UPDATE 1:
THIS ENTIRE POST IS ONLY ABOUT BASECAMP AS I AM TRYING TO ESTABLISH TERMINOLOGY FOR A DISCUSSION OF MOVING A ROUTE TO THE MONTANA. PLEASE REPLY IF YOU THINK THE ABOVE IS CORRECT OR NOT. I only brought up the GPX files as it shows the way Basecamp might be providing "input" data to the Montana which the Montana would then use to autoroute with, if you have the Montana set to a Routing Activity other than DIRECT, which is my next discussion.
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Old 02-04-2013, 02:49 AM   #6846
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So now I think I understand Via Points vs. Shaping points in Basecamp but what about after Routes are transferred onto the Montana? I'm still confused...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky TFS View Post
Here's another post from the BaseCamp forum, including response from a Developer.
Hi,

I tried using shaping points in BaseCamp (won't alert, grayed out), but when I transfer the route to my Montana, while the route is as I created it, it is full of Via Points.
After a route is on a Montana, how can you tell if you have Shaping Points on it or Via Points? I mean earlier I showed the GPX file indicates a distinction between the 2, and I know we are not transferring a GPX file itself, but still it is a clue as to what Basecamp is spitting out. But actually it has nothing to do with what gets onto a Montana so...

But just looking at a route on the Montana, if we have deliberately made all but the Start and Finish points actually be Shaping points, how can you SEE on the Montana what they became instead? What are you looking at on the Montana?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dlh62c View Post
Not all gps support non announcement of shaping points. Im not sure about the Montana.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Albie View Post
The Montana does support non announcements of points.
What else does the Montana not support for Shaping Points (more than just non-announcement)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky TFS View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlh62c View Post
... The route with 51 via-points will load, the route with 52 will not. The routes were made using Basecamp. The routes should be the same except for one via-point being added. Keep in mind, the effort was some what rushed. The route via-point details can be seen in the route property window in BC

The points were added using the route 'Insert' tool. So by most people's definition, these would be considered route shaping points. IMO any point used to tailor a route is considered a via-point. It could be a point placed on a road as a shaping point or a series of way-points strung together or a combination of both.

daryl
No, this is not correct. Re-read post #6802 above. Shaping points, when supported by the device, are NOT part of the allowable total of 51 via points; you can have hundreds. Waypoints or POI's used as points ARE subject to the 51 point limit.
Um Rocky (not daryl, sorry), where exacly does someome (or Garmin) say that Shaping points are not part of the allowable total of 51 via points. For that matter where are we getting the 51 via point limitation from - experiments like dlh62's files? Do you make any claims about how many shaping points the Montana supports for routing? And others claim 250 max shaping points but what does that mean? Because our experiments show over 50 shaping points will then not allow you to press GO to navigate that route!

And dlh62c you claim 51 points will allow you to "GO" and navigate the route, so is this in non-Direct mode, if so I agree. But if in Direct mode I claim the max points you can use to navigate is 50 (below).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Murray View Post
When the 80 point direct route was initially selected using the "Where To" menu, it initially displayed all 80 points and all the direct line segments between those 80 points (along with the "Go" button).
Immediately selecting the "Go" button resulted in a message being shown that states "Only 50 points can be used for follow road navigation."
...
To summarize, direct profile routes exceeding 51 points (which on the Montana includes via points, waypoints, and points of interest) can be used when transferred to the Montana, but these routes will be truncated to use only the first 51 points.
...
Thanks Bill this is very useful... However these 2 statements seem to contradict each other. If you have over 50 points in Direct route you may see the first 50 or so on the map, but it will never be able to hit GO and navigate with a route over 50 points in it, isn't this correct?

Also, when you say Via Points... are any of your points Shaping points or all they all Waypoints or what?

Ok I too did some experiments, with CNNANT on both BaseCamp and the Montana. I have the Montana setup to Automobile Driving for Setup->Routing->Activity FOR ALL OF THIS DISCUSSION:

1. If I made a Route with 58 Via Points including 2 Waypoints (Start and Finish) and 56 Shaping Points (per my definition in my previous post). I could then save it in Motorcycling activity profile and in Direct profile and transfer these 2 routes to my Montana.
- Neither the 58 point Motorcycling or 58 point Direct routes would even open the map up, it just stayed on the page with the list of route names and with the selected route highlighted and just stay there until I tapped the exit button.

2. Next I tried 51 total Via Points (49 shaping + 2 waypoints) and save both Motorcycling and Direct routes:
- The Motorcycling route would display the map, present the Go button and when pressing it then it would show the route properly with all 51 points (49 were little blue pins).
- The Direct route would display the map, present the Go button and when pressing it, then it would give the error "Only 50 points can be used for follow road navigation".

3. Finally I deleted 1 shaping point so I have 50 total Via Points (48 shaping + 2 waypoints) and both the Motorcycling and Direct routes would be able to GO properly.

There is another clue here that someone can explain. Even though for my final case of 50 points, if you look at the Properties in Basecamp it shows 2 numbers at the Summary at the top: Points and Via Points.
Now on a Direct profile they are both the same (50 Via Points and 50 Points), but on the Motorcycling profile the Via Points is still 50 but the Points is 109. I can only assume the algorithm has inserted its own extra points to route it onto actual roads per the mapset.
Here's an example of case 3 (50 Via Points total). So what does this mean and how doe it impact how it works on the Montana?
UPDATE 1: My conclusion is that in Basecamp when you use anything BUT Direct profile then it needs to autoroute and find data points from the mapset you select in order to find roads to turn onto which are then inserted as hidden extra "points" so the item called "Points" in the Properties at the top is now including these extra hidden points. But this is just in Basecamp and when on the Montana only the "input" 50 Via Points are used for its autorouting algorithm (when its Routing Activity is anything BUT Direct).

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Old 02-04-2013, 06:17 AM   #6847
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snooker View Post
Um daryl, where exacly does someome (or Garmin) say that Shaping points are not part of the allowable total of 51 via points. For that matter where are we getting the 51 via point limitation from - experiments like dlh62's files?
The 50 via- point limit comes from Garmin. The files I posted were to show at what number of via-points, the gps fails to successfully load a route. I agree with Bill Murray in that; “(From a programming standpoint, I assume the via points are loaded into an array that begins with a base value of zero and has a maximum value of 50, resulting in 51 location values being used for the route calculation).”
Quote:
Originally Posted by snooker View Post
Do you make any claims about how many shaping points the Montana supports for routing? ?
No! The only claim I make is that I’m a Smart-Ass! A route is an ordered set of via points. Via-points are used to shape the route.
Quote:
Originally Posted by snooker View Post
And others claim 250 max shaping points but what does that mean? ?
There may be some confusion between a ‘Route’ and a ‘Track’. If you’re inserting via-points to shape a 'Route', you can't exceed 50. If you’re inserting trackpoints to shape a 'Track', you can have hundreds if not thousands. When I search the net, I come across sites, including this one, where it’s been stated that 250 points can be used for ‘Off Road Navigation’. I haven’t been able to prove that.


daryl


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Old 02-04-2013, 06:46 AM   #6848
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlh62c View Post
There may be some confusion between a ‘Route’ and a ‘Track’. If you’re inserting via-points to shape a 'Route', you can't exceed 50. If you’re inserting trackpoints to shape a 'Track', you can have hundreds if not thousands. When I search the net, I come across sites, including this one, where it’s been stated that 250 points can be used for ‘Off Road Navigation’. I haven’t been able to prove that.
The 250 point maximum is for Direct Routing.

The Montana can display up to 10,000 track points at one time, which for example could be one track with 10,000 points, or simultaneously displaying 10 tracks with 1,000 points each. I had several tracks in excess of 5,000 points while riding the Continental Divide last summer and the Montana had no problems with them. If I tried to display a new track, which due to the tracks already displayed, would push the total track point total over 10,000, then the Montana would gray out and deactivate the menu button for displaying that particular track and I would have to go back and turn off some other tracks before continuing.

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Old 02-04-2013, 07:48 AM   #6849
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Originally Posted by AlaskaDave View Post
One of the reasons I bought the Montana was because it has the ability to use "custom maps". My idea was that in certain areas in Thailand where no roads appear on the OSM maps I could use the Google Earth images as a guide, driving them with a GPS and then adding those roads to the OSM map later. However, after playing around with this approach for a few days and suffering through the frustrating tedium of correctly geolocating those images I began to reevaluate the idea of using Birdseye imagery for my map making efforts.

I've read quite a bit of the info about Garmin Birdseye imagery and have not been impressed. The customer comments on Amazon are very negative and what I've been able to ferret out in here and on other forums is far from positive. The money isn't the concern -- $30 a year is peanuts for a good mapping alternative to the GE images. But if the imagery is indeed inferior or out of date as many reviewers say, I don't want to waste my time on it.

Do any of you have experience with Birdseye positive or negative you'd care to share? And more specifically, have any of you have tried the images for Thailand or SE Asia?
I've just used GE to make tracks for a 3500 km offroad ride across Eastern Indonesia I'm taking in April where there are no maps. The last 2 months I've been glued to the computer, creating the trail - quite a trip in itself. But GE overall is a great way to create tracks & maps where there's no decent maps IMO - Not Birdseye from what I've seen so far.

2 days ago I've just taken possession of a new 650 Montana to store the tracks for the ride. My plan with Birdseye is to load images where my "Heres Hoping" Trail Creation may need some backup (eg. not sure about the trail I mapped, clouds over the top of some volcano obscuring GE or whatever). At this stage I'm not sure if Birdseye will help with this or not as its early days with the unit & software. From what I've seen so far it probably will.

I've been able to download all the Birdseye imagery I've wanted surrounding my trails. I havn't paid for anything yet though, just viewed it in Basecamp, as I'm still experimenting with it, so may end up with the same problems your're having. Is this a Thailand only thing ?
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Old 02-04-2013, 07:58 AM   #6850
Rocky TFS
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Originally Posted by snooker View Post
There is another clue here that someone can explain. Even though for my final case of 50 points, if you look at the Properties in Basecamp it shows 2 numbers at the Summary at the top: Points and Via Points.
Now on a Direct profile they are both the same (50 points), but on the Motorcycling profile the Via Points is still 50 but the Points is 109. I can only assume the algorithm has inserted its own extra points to route it onto actual roads per the mapset.
Here's an example of case 3 (50 points total). So what does this mean and how doe it impact how it works on the Montana:

OK, Snooker, I'll bite...

I have a 53 point direct route to a mine. If I enable CNNA 2013.2 as the map on both the Montana and BC, and look at the properties on BC, I see 53 points and 53 via points with the Direct activity selected in the properties window.

If I then change the routing activity to Motorcycling, I see 108 points and 53 via points. If I change it back to Direct (or not, apparently) and send it to the Montana, I get 53 blue pins and upon hitting GO get the max 50 point message....so far, just as you did.

HOWEVER, if I then change the Montana's profile to my Topo, which enables the USA Topo map, disables all the other maps and changes the routing type to Direct, I will see the same 53 blue points on the map, but upon hitting GO the route activates without the 50 point message, leading me to believe that I'm now allowed 250 points before truncation.

Now, this mine is in Arizona and I'm still in Idaho, so I can't ride it to be absolutely sure, but the behavior suggests that if you are in a direct routing profile using a non-routable map, you are not subject to the 50 point limit. (250, yes)

Things just get curiouser and curiouser..... I wish it wasn't snowing so I could actually confirm this.

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Old 02-04-2013, 08:44 AM   #6851
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HOWEVER, if I then change the Montana's profile to my Topo, which enables the USA Topo map, disables all the other maps and changes the routing type to Direct, I will see the same 53 blue points on the map, but upon hitting GO the route activates without the 50 point message, leading me to believe that I'm now allowed 250 points before truncation.

Now, this mine is in Arizona and I'm still in Idaho, so I can't ride it to be absolutely sure, but the behavior suggests that if you are in a direct routing profile using a non-routable map, you are not subject to the 50 point limit. (250, yes)
That's a Band Wagon, I'm willing to ride!

Good Job!

daryl
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Old 02-04-2013, 09:14 AM   #6852
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This subject needs to go over here...
https://forums.garmin.com/forumdisplay.php?179-BaseCamp
maybe we can get a coherent answer from the code hackers...
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Old 02-04-2013, 12:12 PM   #6853
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This subject needs to go over here...
https://forums.garmin.com/forumdisplay.php?179-BaseCamp
maybe we can get a coherent answer from the code hackers...
Done.
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Old 02-04-2013, 12:14 PM   #6854
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlh62c View Post
That's a Band Wagon, I'm willing to ride!

daryl
More testing at home:
Opened BaseCamp, set activity to Automobile Driving and map to CNNA.
Created route with 202 points and 103 via points and sent it to Montana
On Montana, set profile to Topo (Topo USA and route activity to Direct)
Upon GO, Montana shows route with 103 points, no limits.
Reset Montana to Automobile profile (CNNA and activity Automobile)
Reload route
Upon GO, it gives the 50 point limit message and gets in the loop between the map with the GO button and the message. I had to X back to home page where no route is active.
This is consistent with the previous test.

Test #2:
Opened BaseCamp, set activity to Direct and map to USA Topo.
Created route with 131 points and sent it to Montana
On Montana, set profile to Topo (Topo USA and route activity to Direct)
Upon GO, Montana shows route with 131 points, no limits. ( I haven't tested for 250+, but I'll bet it is a limit because when I first got it a year ago I tried importing some 300+ point routes from Mapsource and they were all truncated at 250.)
Reset Montana to Automobile profile (CNNA and route activity Automobile)
Part way through the profile change, it gives the 50 via point limit message and gets in the loop between the map with the GO button and the message. I had to X back to home page where no route is active.

Just for grins, I then went to Setup-Routing and changed the activity to direct, with the CNNA map still enabled:
Re-clicked that route and hit GO....No 50 point limit. Changed it back to Automobile driving and the 50 point message appeared instantly.

SO, it seems to be the routing activity in route setup on the unit that is the controlling factor, not the map itself.

Also, I believe that if you set the routing activity to Direct, no matter what map is enabled, you WILL NOT get turn by turn directions....(fairly well understood behavior).

Hope this helps SOMEBODY!!!

PS, for those who haven't read ALL 459 pages of this thread , whenever you send a route with a direct activity to the Montana, it is editable and reversible. When you send one with auto or motorcycle or other custom activity that doesn't use direct routing, it will NOT be editable or reversable.

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Old 02-04-2013, 12:53 PM   #6855
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Guys, am I missing something here?

Do we go through the trouble of making routes that don't exceed in length, that don't recalculate by themselves, that don't do something stupid etc etc, that is, over converting them to perfectly defined tracks, for the sole benefit of an elecronic woman to tell us which way to turn?

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