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Old 02-02-2013, 08:44 PM   #406
enzorover
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Quote:
Originally Posted by backdrifter View Post
Thanks gents!

Unfortunately, the elation was short lived. I tried hitting the starter button to see if she would turn over. No starter. I also noticed that the charge light isn't turning off like it should. Not sure what the deal is, but I'll dig a bit deeper soon.

You did take the fuse out of the circuit before hitting the starter??
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Old 02-03-2013, 12:38 AM   #407
georgesgiralt
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Hello !
Is the starter dead as a post or making some noises ? If it is totally dead, maybe you forgot to plug the command wire (small gauge wire with a spade contact going to the tube where the two big wires are plugged. this wire comes from the starter relay)
It could also be that the starter relay is wrongly wired or the positive wire from the battery (heavy gauge) is not wired...
Last but not least, I doubt that the charging lamp turns out before the engine reaches 1500 rpm... So it should be lit during cranking and starting. And even after starting, at idle.

Do not be discouraged. You are close to total success. Double check the wiring, and, as I told you, remove the sparks plugs, disconnect the wire at the coils and run the bike on the starter to get oil everywhere before she starts on her own.
Double check you have oil on the rockers arms at the heads. Will save you a lot of time and a lot of money if you've clogged the oil passages with gasket paste....

As per the wiring, look at this PDF file made by a French Guru on BMW electrics. Alas it is in French but the wirings are in color so .... It covers all airheads and is a tremendous work. Enjoy !

http://www.flatistech.com/index.php?...lage_BMW_R.pdf
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Old 02-03-2013, 06:05 PM   #408
Airhead Steve
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If you tried to start the bike with a 8 amp fuse the fuse blew. I think you already know this be might have forgot it was there. Your rebuild is Awesome! I love the black powder coated wheels and am interested in how they hold up over thousands of miles and a few tire changes.
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Old 02-04-2013, 07:21 AM   #409
backdrifter OP
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Thanks for the comments gents.

Enzo and Airhead Steve: I did not remove the 8amp fuse before trying to start the bike. Didn't even think about it. Of course now it makes a lot of sense! However, the dash lights are still coming on, so I didn't blow the fuse. That points to another issue. And thanks for the kind comments, Steve! No reason to believe that the wheels won't be fine. I've had other powder coated bike wheels and they've done great over the long haul. They hold up a lot better than painted or anodized rims, that's for sure.

georgesgiralt: The starter is completely dead - no motion, no noise, nothing. I suspect you're right. I have something between the battery, the starter, and the starter relay wired wrong or not wired at all. I don't recall having any extra terminals, and I really had thought that I had labeled every wire on the bike end very well. Oh well, I'll go back and take a look, but unfortunately it will be next weekend before I get a chance to.

Good thing it's still cold and snowy outside!
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Old 02-04-2013, 07:53 AM   #410
georgesgiralt
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Checking the starter wiring is easy.
The starter get the high wire gage wire from the + battery terminal. This goes to an 8mm diameter bolt at the bottom of the starter. At this same post you have to plug the output of the alternator (form diode board to the starter).
Then everything is set up for the starter to run. It has the juice to go. But it needs it's command to fire.
There is a fast-on just near the 8mm posts. This gets a cable from the starter relay. This wire carries around 4 to 10 amps and is used to energize the big round fat relay on the starter (moves the spindle to couple it to the flywheel, and switch the positive from the battery to the starter motor (the other 8mm post on the starter).
My guess is that you forgot to wire this fast-on. Either at the starter or at the starter relay.
I'm not familiar with the /5but IMHO, you should have two wires on the + battery : The thick one going to the starter and a smaller one powering everything else. If you fuse this small wire, you will not burn the fuse, unless you turn the headlights on...
Checking the starter is easy. Get a string of wire, one side to the battery positive terminal, the other one on the fast-on on the starter. If the motor is sound and contacts goods, the starter will run and crank the flywheel. If this is OK, then the wiring between this fast-on and the starter button is at fault. If not, the starter motor is at fault...
It is not uncommon for a starter motor to have problems when let aside for a very long period. Oxidation on the contacts increase resistance a lot and, thus, reduce tremendously the current available to this huge consumer...
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Old 02-04-2013, 08:46 AM   #411
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Quote:
Originally Posted by backdrifter View Post
.... I also noticed that the charge light isn't turning off like it should...
I doubt the gen light will go off until it's started and running.
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Old 02-09-2013, 01:44 PM   #412
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What an excellant job.

Did you set up the clearance to spec on the clutch actuation arm at the back of the gearbox? I believe it's important for the correct operation of the clutch. You may get slippage or drag if it isn't right.

Don't rush to get it running though. If you know it's ready to go you'll get nothing but grief from your wife. She'll be fed up polishing the marks left by your nose on the windows as you spend every available minute checking if its warm enough, dry enough and free of salt for the first trip.

P.S. I still think that you should have used the standard headlight brackets and cut them down for the different triple clamp. The ones you have used don't have that "hewn from solid" look that the rest of the bike conveys. Of cours it's your bike and so your views that count.

P.P.S. If it's a 12 volt system 8 amps (96 watts) should be plenty for the headlamp and tail lamp and probably the brake light as well but won't cover the turn signals.

Spring should be with you before August.
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Old 02-10-2013, 10:56 AM   #413
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BackDrifter-

The first Vintage Bike Night of the year will be March 4th, 6:00PM at Schlafly Bottleworks.

Just in case you needed a target date.


Hope you have it up and going, I'll be there.
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Old 02-16-2013, 08:30 AM   #414
backdrifter OP
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Calling georgesgiralt, calling georgesgiralt - you're needed in the garage!

OK, I went out to look again today. As it turns out, based on your very thorough description above, I had the heavy gauge wire from the positive terminal of the battery mounted to the wrong 8mm lug. I had it connected to the 8mm lug at the top of the starter solenoid, not the one on the bottom.

So, I started to move it, and quickly grounded the wire against the motor. I'm hoping I didn't fry anything (again). I disconnected the battery, and then moved the heavy gauge wire to the 8mm lug at the bottom of the starter solenoid.

Then I went to connect the battery. Bad news, I still have something wrong. When I attach the positive lead, the starter motor starts spinning immediately. Even without the key in the ignition. The motor spins up and stays running, however, it does NOT engage the solenoid to make the gear contact the teeth on the flywheel, so the engine is NOT turning over.

What have I done wrong now? I have attached a few pictures below, and have some questions:

Top lug, with nothing currently connected to it:



Georgesgiralt, you are correct, I have two separate leads at the positive battery terminal - the heavy gauge wire that runs the starter, and the smaller one that runs everything else. Photo:



View from the left side of the bike. You can see I have the wire from the starter relay connected to the fast-on, and I have the heavy gauge wire from the battery connected to the lug in the bottom of the picture. Another small wire is connected to the bottom lug, and it runs into the housing of the starter motor. I did not disconnect that wire during the rebuild. Once again, you can see I have nothing connected to the upper-most lug.



So, help, what have I done wrong?

1. Do I have the heavy gauge wire from the positive lead on the correct lug at the starter now?

2. What is the 2nd 8mm lug, the one more towards the top of the starter, for?

3. When I was moving the heavy gauge wire from the top lug that I had it on to the bottom lug that you recommened, I got a bunch of sparks and almost got zapped. I'm not sure if I contacted the motor casing (the aluminum), or if it happened when I touched the lower lug. Did I fry something?

4. Any ideas why the starter motor would instantly be powered up, and continue to run once the battery is connected? Again, this happens without the key in the ignition. And again, the solenoid is not engaging and pushing the starter gear onto the flywheel - the starter motor is just spinning freely.

Help!
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http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=608166
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Old 02-16-2013, 08:49 AM   #415
Renner
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while you wait

here's some reading material that may be interesting & helpful:
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/gtbender/print/moto_guzzi_loopframe_electrical_starter_and_soleno id_repair_-bosch-.htm

same as our stock starter, different old moto.

I'd try to be more helpful, but my employer blocks some image hosting sites (can't see your pics from here).
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Old 02-16-2013, 08:55 AM   #416
enzorover
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Unless BMW starter/solenoid wiring is vastly different from auto starters, the top lug is the B+ from the battery, the bottom one is the power for the starter. If you run a wire directly from battery to the bottom lug you will certainly get sparks and the starter will run w/o the solenoid. You haven't fried anything.
The solenoid doubles as a relay. When you put power to the small wire it energizes the solenoid which both connects power to the starter and engages the starter to the relay.
If you jump power from the battery to the small terminal you should hear the solenoid click.
You've already "trouble shot" the starter motor so you know that works, if you jump the solenoid and it works, you'll know the problem is somewhere between the solenoid and the starter switch.

...unless BMW wiring is different...
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Old 02-16-2013, 11:08 AM   #417
georgesgiralt
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Hello !
Do not panic, I'm here !
Remove the battery FIRST. You do not want to burn the bike in the garage won't you ?
The big gauge cable from the + battery should go to the upper round lug on TOP of the starter . As does the wire from the inside of the motor (which is the output of the alternator/diode board). If you look closely at the starter, you should see that the bottom lug has a copper nude cable going into the starter motor itself. In fact this big round "thing" is a power relay. The two round lugs are the input and output of the relay. The fast on spade is the relay command.
When you put the B+ on the bottom lug, you bypassed the relay, so the starter started to run ! But as the relay command was not energized, the motor axe was not push front and, so, was not engaging the flywheel.
That's for the explanation !
Now the cure :
1) Wire the B+ correctly with the wire from the diode board.
2) plug the battery on, positive first, then ground.
3) turn the contact on. Lights should come on (oil, charge and neutral)
4) press the starter button.
Does it spin ?
-------------------> Yes ? Hurray ! go to next step starting the bike
-------------------> No ? Do not despair.
Take a length of wire, remove the isolation on each end half an inch will do. Touch the big round lug where the B+ is with one end ans touch the spade near it with the second end. The starter should spin. Take GREAT care not to make a short circuit as the starter will make a lot of noise and start the engine ....
If the starter goes on, the problem lies between the starter motor and the starter button (button, starter relay, wires, ...)
If the starter does not goes on, the culprit is .... the starter motor.

Go back in the garage and report to us !
We wait !!!
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Old 02-16-2013, 11:52 AM   #418
backdrifter OP
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OK, I may have found another piece to the puzzle, so let's recap everything that I have connected:

Top lug (B+): I have the heavy gauge cable from the positive batttery terminal wired to this. That's it. I DO NOT have a wire coming from the diode board like you mentioned, nor do I see a wire from the diode board that could connect here.

Bottom lug: I do see the copper wire that you mentioned that goes into the starter motor housing itself.

Fast on spade: I have the correct wire from the starter relay plugged in here.

This seems to suggest that I'm missing a wire from the diode board to the top lug (B+ terminal), right? Can you advise where on the diode board this wire originates, and what it looks like? Color, perhaps? I'll take another look, but I did not see any free wires.

Thanks - getting closer!

I should also mention that I won't be starting the bike today anyway. Just for kicks I filled her with gas and tried kicking her over - and both carbs immediately started leaking. I think I need new float bowl gaskets, so there's another issue!
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1973 BMW R60/5:
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=608166
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Old 02-16-2013, 12:27 PM   #419
georgesgiralt
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You are right !
The wire from the diode board does not go to the starter motor on the /5 bikes.
Look here :
http://www.flatistech.com/index.php?...C3%A9rie+5.pdf
I hope this will do !
As per the leak at the carbs, try to tap them gently with a little hammer. Maybe the floats are stuck.
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Old 02-16-2013, 01:02 PM   #420
backdrifter OP
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OK, then I'm starting to think I do indeed have the starter wired up correctly.

So, I took a piece of wire as you suggested and connected the relay spade connection to the B+ terminal. The solenoid made noise and activated.

So, as you said, that leads me to believe I have a problem somewhere in between the starter motor and the starter button. Unfortunately I'm running out of time today, so I'll have to take a closer look tomorrow.

Next question: I have the wiring diagram that tells me which wires go to what terminals on the starter relay, however, the starter relay itself is not marked with the terminal numbers. How can I determine what the terminal numbers on the starter relay are? I had marked the connections as I removed them, and I just blindly put them back where I had recorded them being. I certainly could have made a mistake....

Thanks again!
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"We are very good at preparing to live, but not very good at living."
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1973 BMW R60/5:
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=608166
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