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Old 02-10-2013, 01:25 AM   #31
Tin Woodman OP
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Very funny, fellas.

Between Loctiting the quill and 'weaseling' out the camshaft, for a while there I actually thought you guys were serious. At least I had an entertaining day.

Here's a couple of parts that needed liberating -



And the source of my angst -



The weasel hole -



Disston, I think these lifters are gonna be OK -



Right cylinder seems good -



Left cylinder, not so good (pitting from 30 years of neglect) -




Last mechanic was a little sloppy -



Must have had a valve job three decades ago -



Today's puzzle - why is one of the cylinder studs a funny color?



More laffs tomorrow. . .
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Old 02-10-2013, 06:29 AM   #32
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The lifters look OK.

I think some cylinders do get run even that bad but I would not like it. If the pistons are good maybe second hand cylinders would work. Or a set?

You know that since you are already looking for a cam shaft and 308's seem more available then you could also do 750 or 900 cylinders if a suitable pair could be found.

It's really easy to do once you start spending bunches of money.
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Old 02-10-2013, 08:21 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin Woodman View Post
Disston, I think these lifters are gonna be OK -



.
I'd say the one on the right is going bad. I bet that if you run your fingernail across that spot in the middle, you'll find that that it isn't smooth. That's the beginning of the end for that lifter.
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Old 02-10-2013, 05:14 PM   #34
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Disston, I agree the left cylinder is marginal but the obsessive/compulsive part of me would drive me nuts if I didn't address it. I hadn't planned to do an engine rebuild for a couple of years but here I am being sucked into a black hole. Going to a set of bigger cylinders also means the Bing 26mm carbs will have to be replaced - where will it end? Probably better to rebore. . .

JonnyCash - I did the fingernail test and you're right, slight roughness at the center of the lifter. Now I see what Disston means about pitting. Very subtle.

Today's task was to remove the crank outer bearing and sprocket. Bearing pops off with little difficulty -



The manual makes it sound like pulling the sprocket is a piece of cake - don't believe it. A little heat helped but it was still reluctant to release. The manual is definitely right, however, about protecting the crank end with pennies -




This explains why there was a lot of chain slop -

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Old 02-11-2013, 09:11 AM   #35
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Good ol' Google

I'm going to say what some of you are probably already thinking - this thread is pretty boring. Nothing here that hasn't been covered a hundred times before. I won't report back until I discover something that could be interesting, useful or mildly stimulating.

Something to note on a slightly different subject - the search engines are getting kind of creepy these days. Within 4 hours of posting my latest installment yesterday, Google interrogated this thread and rendered it discoverable. I confirmed this by searching on rebores for R60/5s and it pointed to this thread.

Not only are your posts permanent, they are virtually immediate. Of course, Google won't tell you what their SEO algorithms are but you can bet they have a lot to do with traffic and context. Not saying it's a bad thing - just an observation.
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Old 02-11-2013, 09:28 AM   #36
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Question

I have been loading some photos onto photobucket and thay have appeared on Facebook, I'm sure I did not agree to thAt
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Old 02-11-2013, 09:37 AM   #37
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There are two aspects to this.

1...I like the repetition of ideas and writing the needed answers out most of the time. Part of that is helping somebody but I also realized some years ago that I learn and become better by explaining stuff. It's how I learn. It makes for a better understanding if I can explain it.

2...The machines are coming. They will run the World. Google is aptly named when called a Search Engine. It is a machine and a very important part of the Ultimate Machine, The Brain. If not Google then there will be a Brain that runs all the machines. You can not stop this and I can not stop this. It's Technology and it always wins because our values have only one standard. The standard to the operating of all human endevor is the making of profit. It rules every aspect of our lives. Even something that should be Non-Profit is not. What is that? The Government! The Government is into making a profit. They work only for the rich and the Machines work only for the rich and by the time they realize that they are just another human that the Machines don't need it will be too late.

Cars are Now being built that can drive themselves. You will own one of these, some of you are already looking for one. It will drive itself on the freeway. In five (5) years a new generation of cars and trucks will be able to do this from point A to point B with out a human.

With in ten (10) years the machines will be capable of thinking. They will not be stoppable. They already are not stoppable.

But yes I enjoy my time on the Internet. So please continue to ask and talk about the same things. We sometimes learn something new and along the way we keep some of these older, non-thinking, machines alive.

I hope I haven't digressed too far but I've enjoyed this thread and hope you keep us up to date.
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Old 02-12-2013, 06:34 PM   #38
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Careful, Disston - you're scaring the children. . .

Ah, where else can we find philosophical discussions on government duplicity whilst fixing our beloved airheads? I too must admit to a certain amount of paranoia on occasion. After all, the precursor to the internet was the Arpanet, purportedly used by government to monitor subversive activities amongst university students. We have every reason to suspect its motives.

I agree to a certain extent with your manifesto - machines will inherit the earth possibly to the exclusion of human beings. Perhaps repairing our motorcycles is our way of convincing ourselves we still have mastery over machines, hence our destinies.

I find it strangely reassuring when I solve a mechanical puzzle, particularly on my bike - it creates the illusion of control. Especially control over machines once owned by upwardly mobile yuppies of the 70s. The BMW airhead as a metaphor for success is undeniable - it was the bike to own if you were the boss. The proletariat shall inherit the airheads and preserve them for all mankind as an example of superior technical prowess. We are, in effect, museum curators, custodians of relics of a once proud Teutonic past.

But then again, maybe I'm just messin' with ya. OK, OK, I'll continue to update this thread!
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Old 02-12-2013, 08:18 PM   #39
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BTW, I understand the pitting of the left cylinder is because the bikes are stored on the side stand and water collects on the low side. Makes sense I guess.

I do foresee a day when the machines are built to not be worked on. Already young men or boys the age we were when we started working on our cars and bikes have no idea how an internal combustion engine works. The manufacturers don't want us to fix our machines. They want us to buy a new one.

I'm going to keep mine running as long as I can. The Winter months around here though are not really conducive to riding a motorcycle all year. I could toughen up a little more, I did ride every day in November. But I think there's a limit to how much I can toughen up, ya know?

EDIT:
And further more, it was ChasBMW that said to stop it about fixing the cam. I still think it may be possible to fix that cam but Chas says to buy a 308 cam and I think he means an ordinary 750 or 900 cam but I say you should get a 600 cam. You do know that the 600 cam is different that the larger engine cams, don't you? Or if it's really hard to find a 600 cam, it shouldn't that hard really, then consider fixing the loose quill. Yes I think this can be done. You would have to have at least a picture of where the D shape is in relation to the rest of the cam shaft but it does not have to be exact. The points plate screw holes can be elongated to compensate for having the D shape off a little. There is no reason why the points operation has to be in the exact position it is in. It can be adjusted separately.
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disston screwed with this post 02-12-2013 at 08:40 PM
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Old 02-12-2013, 10:29 PM   #40
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Whoa. Better watch it-- this New-Age stuff will get up kicked into JoMama...

Quote:
I do foresee a day when the machines are built to not be worked on.
Look at consumer electronics-- DVD players, televisions, computers etc. From the manufacturing processes used (large scale integrated circuit chips, surface mount components, multi-layer circuit boards) it's not feasible in many cases to repair the product. It can be done IF you want to put the time into it and IF you can get replacement ICs, but in many cases the cost of repair will exceed the cost of new. Not a conspiracy, just the way the the manufacturing process has evolved.

Anywhays, what were we talking about? Loose /5/6 cam quill. In the old days, as Airhead SimpliFiers we'd be inclined to fix it. But nowadays, we're lazy and it's easier to scour eBay for a decent replacement. And, in the long run, probably more reasonable.

Rain, rain, rain. Been stuck inside for too too long.



--Bill
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Old 02-13-2013, 05:08 PM   #41
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It was the 600 cam shaft and when he took the heads off found the bad left cylinder. I have sometimes spent months waiting for a certain part to show up on Ebay at a reasonable price. It's actually getting harder all the time.

This recently showed up on another list and I thought it might be encouraging to see somebody else's 600 in worst shape than yours. This rider says this machine was running fine. BTW it's the left cylinder;

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Old 02-13-2013, 06:42 PM   #42
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Wow - that's a lot of pitting on that cylinder! And it still runs fine!? Very encouraging.

Disston, your explanation of why the left one rusts first is logical. I couldn't remember if I changed the oil back in '84 before I packed the engine away - I can barely remember what I had for breakfast this morning. I assumed I hadn't changed the oil and residual acid was to blame but that wouldn't explain why it was limited to the left side. Nor have I found rust pitting on any other engine component so far.

Before I pulled the cylinders off, the pistons moved effortlessly in the barrels - it's very tempting to simply slap everything back together along with a new timing chain. I just priced the following items:

1. Rebore both cylinders - $120 very reasonable I'd say
2. New pistons - over $300 each (must be made of platinum)
3. New crankshaft sprocket - $150 (Bill warned me)
4. Timing chain - $100

I could easily get carried away bringing everything back to spec but where do I draw the line? It would be great to leave a few projects for next year.

I'm glad you're persisting with the recommendation to fix the quill. I'm starting to like the Loctite idea again. If I can figure out the alignment I'll give it a shot - nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Bill, my 25 year old son just told me he wished he had paid attention to my mechanical projects when he was growing up. Couldn't believe my ears! Keeping a truck on the road is killing him.
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Old 02-13-2013, 08:06 PM   #43
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Your Plan A:
Quote:
1. Rebore both cylinders - $120 very reasonable I'd say
2. New pistons - over $300 each (must be made of platinum)
3. New crankshaft sprocket - $150 (Bill warned me)
4. Timing chain - $100
My Plan B (suggestion)

1. If the rings aren't slap wore out (check the ring gaps) do a light ball-hone om the cylinders, clean everything up and resuse it. A Top End is easy to do later.

2 Unless the piston have way way too much clearance, use them. Worst that can happen is you'll have piston slap. Used to be machinists would knurl (or knurlize) pistons to take up clearance. Get it running for now, do a fancy fix later.

2b. Valves. How are your valves? Valve seats, valve faces. Check them and decide. If all looks "ok", clean 'em up, lap them in and go. Valve guides, too. Rocker arm bushings?

3. Crank sprocket, chain, chain tensioner rail, tensioner spring, oil seals: crank, cam and tach drive. Gaskets. And that should do it.

The Camshaft: See what a used one can gotten for, it may be cost-effective to not mess with the old quill. And your lifters look iffy, so see what cam+lifters would be. Then weigh the plusses and minuses.

Quote:
25 year old son just told me he wished he had paid attention to my mechanical projects when he was growing up.
Payback. Ain't it wunnerful...

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Old 02-13-2013, 11:45 PM   #44
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I think I saw a couple of lifters recently that were about like yours. Two looked fine and two had the discoloration in the middle. So with the eight you might could get four? Ebay of course. I didn't mark it.

If you keep a good eye out there and know how to set up the search function so you see everything that pops up re cam shafts you might get lucky and get what is needed right away.

I agree at this point the bad cylinder and worn pistons can be reused if they seem to have some wear left in them. How loose do the pistons feel with out the rings on them? Oh, and be especially careful removing rings for examination and such. These are too easy to break. Of course you know that? Don't you?

If you can remove the valve parts from the heads you can check the condition of guides and valve seats. determine if these need any attention.

You know we used to do the valve guide replacement on our level and some still do but because of the issues with valve seats because of unleaded gasoline we almost always send heads out. I don't think we have had a discussion about doing valve guides for years. We have talked about which guides and which valves, especially the exhausts, but not the process of replacing them. I have had several sets of cylinder heads apart and I have dropped new exhaust valves into the heads I'm now using but I got away with using the older guides this time. Now because my other set of heads need new seats I will end up sending them out someday.

All of this to say that taking the heads apart for looking is not a big deal.

Hang in there.
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Old 02-14-2013, 01:02 AM   #45
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It sounds as if you have a plan, this is really good to keep the momemtum going on your project.

You will need a 'small seal camshaft'. Fitted up to bikes produced up to about September 75, (my June 75 has one). The 308 degree camshaft will be more widely available, given that the chronic pinging problems in 600s have been blamed partially on the soft cam fitted to the 600s it would be worth considering. Unfortunately I cannot speak from personal experiance.

If you use the 600 spec camshaft Remember that gas today is generally of a lower octane that 20 years ago, I would consider using the thicker base plate used on these models to lower othe compression ratio.
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