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Old 02-10-2013, 09:40 AM   #16
ebrabaek OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbtw View Post
Is there a inmate that can lend ebrabaek his or her Boosterplug and or that other one so that we can have a definitive end all independent test?

Can't wait for the results, i want to get rid of that twitchyness myself so i found a local dyno shop but not yet sure if that is the best route to go, is kinda spensive
I am not getting the connection.... Please elaborate. Once the new custom maps are loaded, we can tinker with the a/f fuel ratio off idle. As the BP and the other one ( one being made in my home country of DK) enrichens the mixture just a little through out the range, the custom map wil do the same, but only off idle.... Or so I plan it...
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Old 02-10-2013, 10:36 AM   #17
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Well i must be honest since you wanted to do the definitive end all test to stop the bullshit and do some hard science i became extremely interested in your results . You wanted to baseline and then tune, hopefully not just for more power. I am very interested in getting the bike to perform better economicly and remove this fucking surging because its a pain in the ass. Power increase to me is not that important, i would rather have a nice smooth bike, it goes as fast as it should already.

I want science, not raving reviews that show's the surge in the rpm band and it gone. I want information about how much the fuel/air mixture changes at what rpm. Adding +6 percent to everything is but a hack solution. A workaround rather than a true fix.
That's why i made my cheeky post and hoped you would fall for it.
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Old 02-10-2013, 11:07 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by gbtw View Post
Well i must be honest since you wanted to do the definitive end all test to stop the bullshit and do some hard science i became extremely interested in your results . You wanted to baseline and then tune, hopefully not just for more power. I am very interested in getting the bike to perform better economicly and remove this fucking surging because its a pain in the ass. Power increase to me is not that important, i would rather have a nice smooth bike, it goes as fast as it should already.

I want science, not raving reviews that show's the surge in the rpm band and it gone. I want information about how much the fuel/air mixture changes at what rpm. Adding +6 percent to everything is but a hack solution. A workaround rather than a true fix.
That's why i made my cheeky post and hoped you would fall for it.
I am in full agreement of what you say..... I truly are. I was just eluding to the boosterplug, as it is a band aid, more so than adressing the real problem.... imho. OK I am not wanting to bash the BP, because as a band aid stops the bleeding, the BP does cure the monkey hop.... I just dont like the way it does it. But back on track. To work the BP on the dyno, has no real interest for me, as it would just cost more for me, and I have no interest in it. Even as it originates from my home country of DK...... I am how ever considering to fork out the extra few hundreds of $ it would take to begin with a stock system as a base line for the first dyno run, then header, or perhaps header and pipe, then pc-5 with AT....then lastly airbox off. Or so is the plan. There are some method to the madness, as this could be a usefull package solution to all the 8gs around the world. As if this works out as forcasted, pc's could be programed by Epic motorsports/Sisneron Speed Works, along with the at, and shipped out to customers...... If EMS/SSW decides to play along. I am sure I will get to the bottom of this...... I just need to decide how low I want to start.....With the dyno config.
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Old 02-10-2013, 11:23 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by ebrabaek View Post
I am in full agreement of what you say..... I truly are. I was just eluding to the boosterplug, as it is a band aid, more so than adressing the real problem.... imho. OK I am not wanting to bash the BP, because as a band aid stops the bleeding, the BP does cure the monkey hop.... I just dont like the way it does it. But back on track. To work the BP on the dyno, has no real interest for me, as it would just cost more for me, and I have no interest in it. Even as it originates from my home country of DK...... I am how ever considering to fork out the extra few hundreds of $ it would take to begin with a stock system as a base line for the first dyno run, then header, or perhaps header and pipe, then pc-5 with AT....then lastly airbox off. Or so is the plan. There are some method to the madness, as this could be a usefull package solution to all the 8gs around the world. As if this works out as forcasted, pc's could be programed by Epic motorsports/Sisneron Speed Works, along with the at, and shipped out to customers...... If EMS/SSW decides to play along. I am sure I will get to the bottom of this...... I just need to decide how low I want to start.....With the dyno config.
works for me too! :)
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Old 02-10-2013, 04:06 PM   #20
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Soooooo... I talked with Eddie, and without going into too much detail...... The goal is two maps.... One for HP.....and one for economy....with the monkey hop of idle corrected.
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Old 02-10-2013, 08:07 PM   #21
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Yep that's the big advantage of the AT, at no cost in dyno time you can generate as many maps as you wish.

BUT, and IMHO it's a big but, unless they have redesigned the PCV since we installed ours in the Guzzis (about 3 years ago) you can't use the Auto Tune and the map switching function of the PCV at the same time, it's one or the other.

If you want to use the AT to account for changing atmospherc and other engine conditions all the time then changing the target AFR map requires an upload from a computer to the PCV. Without the AT running you can have 2 maps stored in the PCV and switch between them via a handle bar mounted switch, but you then don't have the benefit of the auto tune's continuous adjustment of the mixture according to varying conditions.

It's a steep learning curve - or at least it was for me
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Old 02-10-2013, 08:43 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Mike.C View Post
Yep that's the big advantage of the AT, at no cost in dyno time you can generate as many maps as you wish.

BUT, and IMHO it's a big but, unless they have redesigned the PCV since we installed ours in the Guzzis (about 3 years ago) you can't use the Auto Tune and the map switching function of the PCV at the same time, it's one or the other.

If you want to use the AT to account for changing atmospherc and other engine conditions all the time then changing the target AFR map requires an upload from a computer to the PCV. Without the AT running you can have 2 maps stored in the PCV and switch between them via a handle bar mounted switch, but you then don't have the benefit of the auto tune's continuous adjustment of the mixture according to varying conditions.

It's a steep learning curve - or at least it was for me
You could be right. I am not sure. I have talked with Eddie, a d expressed my concerns. He normally jets.for power, and are quite good at that......so perhaps I am. Throwing him a curve ball......going for economy..... ha ha.... we shal se. My goal is to establish a start..... and then eventually be able to fine tweak it myself...... perhaps ending up with only one map....
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Old 02-11-2013, 08:59 AM   #23
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Mike...... It looks like your correct. As such...... I will have a switch that simply turns the AT off and on. On for max power, and off for economy. When it is off, it will follow a zero map minus the off idle correction. I have a feeling that I wil spend most of the time in the on position. The last bike that he tuned for me.....went from 32 rwhp, to 55 rwhp.... And it was jetted correct before the tune, and got about 53 mpg average.... after the tune it jumped to 58 mpg.... Go figure. I know you cant have both power and economy..... But in practicality....That's how the last one went. So we shall see. Because of this, I have no option than start naked with stock pipe, so we can really see how lean this bike is from the factory. I am assured there will be no loos in torque......high or low...... Many people perceive there is, but what is happening as the bike is opened up, the low torque is now more transparent,as the bike takes off at higher rpm's like a silly monkey.
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Old 02-12-2013, 04:05 AM   #24
Mike.C
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The other thing I learned was that while the AT is a great tool, it's not as good as an experienced operator with a dyno.

After spending a lot of time tweaking the maps with the AT, I then put the Breva 1100 on the dyno and the bloke took it one step further and the difference although minor was noticeable - even to my inept riding abilities.

So like all tools it's just that, a tool. Don't be fooled by the Dynojet hype into blindly believing that because it puts a heap of numbers up on a computer screen it is giving the only map that can operate the engine at peak performance. It sounds like your bloke might be on the right wavelength to get the best result from your install. I am really interested to see what the end result is.

What I have found the AT absolutely the ducks nuts for is compensating for varying riding conditions. Particularly altitude and temperature, and although very difficult to be sure I reckon it also helps with differing fuel "quality".

Oh and as well as that, and it turned my Breva1100 from a mild mannered over priced tractor into a fire breathing Italian beauty
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Old 02-12-2013, 07:50 AM   #25
ebrabaek OP
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Originally Posted by Mike.C View Post
The other thing I learned was that while the AT is a great tool, it's not as good as an experienced operator with a dyno.

After spending a lot of time tweaking the maps with the AT, I then put the Breva 1100 on the dyno and the bloke took it one step further and the difference although minor was noticeable - even to my inept riding abilities.

So like all tools it's just that, a tool. Don't be fooled by the Dynojet hype into blindly believing that because it puts a heap of numbers up on a computer screen it is giving the only map that can operate the engine at peak performance. It sounds like your bloke might be on the right wavelength to get the best result from your install. I am really interested to see what the end result is.

What I have found the AT absolutely the ducks nuts for is compensating for varying riding conditions. Particularly altitude and temperature, and although very difficult to be sure I reckon it also helps with differing fuel "quality".

Oh and as well as that, and it turned my Breva1100 from a mild mannered over priced tractor into a fire breathing Italian beauty

I full agree. That is exactly why im going to SSW...... as Eddie has extensive experience with DJ.....and know how to dyno tune. He has written countless maps for the DJ . People send him their motors from around the world.... for him to tune. It is going to be fun.....
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Old 02-12-2013, 08:03 PM   #26
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1) still bet she's getting enough air at intake, but we shall see...eh? Visual appearances can be deceiving. Don't confuse velocity for flow rate. They're not the same thing. The intake pulls in a known volume based on the displacement and stroke....same exact volume every intake stroke. A reduction in the snorkel diameter midway would cause an increase in velocity thru that area but the flowrate of air remains unchanged. As a twin cylinder, the volume is only half of the total consumed (400cc per cylinder)....and these occur at different times relative to each other. So, the total demand on the intake is never more than what is required by only one cylinder at a time.....that is what's being fed.

Indeed, the air velocity will slow down as it enters the Collector (the larger box at the filter). This is good. A bit calmer air at the Collector. Atmospheric pressure typically fills any void (or vacuum created) nearly instantly. That will happen effortlessly without the bike in motion, simply because of the nature of the pressurized environment that we live in (though you don't physically feel that 14.7psi pressure). It's present always....more or less. Now, add to this some additional pressure from the forward motion, and the box is sure to stay fully pressured or even slightly compressed state. Additional air will not enter the box until one of the intake strokes occurs, and creates a void to fill, so to speak. Keep in mind this is happening only every other stroke across both cylinders. So, there is always a one stroke period of time for the box to refill before the next stroke. However, in reality it would refill almost instantly. Just another way to visualize how much time to move air in before it's used again.

A Triple (like Tiger) would be pulling in air constantly, but only by 1/3 the total perceived need. Aaaah....what rambling we've created. But fun conversation, nonetheless. Air is a fluid, yes, but compressible gas, thus much faster equalizing. There is an infinite amount constantly available at the ready. Behaves nothing like a liquid.

2) a good Dyno Operator should be able to give you one curve containing the best of both worlds "as a practical matter". Are you planning to RACE your F8? If so, then yeah...I could see a need for an absolute max HP curve. But I'm guessing that doesn't serve your best interest for the long haul. The custom tuning along with the new fuel control measures will likely produce such nice results, it will all be better than what you had before (assuming the stock ECU was not properly optimized). Caution: Extra Curves only cost me extra money. I only did it for experimentation and knowledge. I always ended up settling on one permanent best compromise.....very happily. FWIW

3) in matters of the Dyno Map versus the AT....

The Dyno will be used to build a "Fuel Map". That is the table with +/- adjustments in fuel injected. This is the one that matters most and will be left (or loaded) into your PCV. When the Toggle Switch (a separate item you must install) is turned OFF, you will be running on this fuel map. The PCV actually has the capability to hold a separate fuel map for every single gear on the bike. So, to take full advantage of such a sophisticated system, you need to wire in the gear indicator wire (where you pull that from on the F8, I am clueless). Consequently, done properly your Tuner will build 6 separate maps....one each gear. It's not mandatory but very beneficial.

When you download maps on Internet from Dynojet, you are receiving a Fuel Map variation. The Fuel Map has no bearing on the Auto-Tuner (AT). And the AT won't do a darn thing until you a build (fill in) the AFR table (Air Fuel Ratio)....but with what? No one really ever says....and I've not seen one to copy over. SO, you start with nothing and begin guessing....which could be inefficient at best, and harmful to the motor at worst. I finally settled on loading an AFR value of 13.2% across my entire table for my WRR.

When the Toggle is turned ON, the AT unit is self-adjusting the fuel curve (all over the place) until the O2 sensor is reading that exact value at that particular set of parameters (RPM & TPS)...nanosecond by nanosecond. My experience on the WRR was that the AT was reacting faster than the ECU could process....making the performance a bit choppy and unsettled in on/off...stop & go Trail conditions. So, I learned to always turn off my AT and go to my main fuel curve whenever offroad. The AT was clearly best employed in more steady state riding along roads & slab. Just be very careful NOT to accept the Trim Values imposed on the fuel curve (temporarily) by the AT unit whenever you plug in your computer to the PCV. as that will permanently overwrite the curve you paid dearly to create on the Dyno. If you saved a copy of that file on your PC, then no sweat.....you can always reload your Main Dyno curve. I must have saved mine in 3 separate places, I think. .

My $2,000 worth anyway.....

HF
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Old 02-12-2013, 08:42 PM   #27
ebrabaek OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighFive View Post
1) still bet she's getting enough air at intake, but we shall see...eh? Visual appearances can be deceiving. Don't confuse velocity for flow rate. They're not the same thing. The intake pulls in a known volume based on the displacement and stroke....same exact volume every intake stroke. A reduction in the snorkel diameter midway would cause an increase in velocity thru that area but the flowrate of air remains unchanged. As a twin cylinder, the volume is only half of the total consumed (400cc per cylinder)....and these occur at different times relative to each other. So, the total demand on the intake is never more than what is required by only one cylinder at a time.....that is what's being fed.

Indeed, the air velocity will slow down as it enters the Collector (the larger box at the filter). This is good. A bit calmer air at the Collector. Atmospheric pressure typically fills any void (or vacuum created) nearly instantly. That will happen effortlessly without the bike in motion, simply because of the nature of the pressurized environment that we live in (though you don't physically feel that 14.7psi pressure). It's present always....more or less. Now, add to this some additional pressure from the forward motion, and the box is sure to stay fully pressured or even slightly compressed state. Additional air will not enter the box until one of the intake strokes occurs, and creates a void to fill, so to speak. Keep in mind this is happening only every other stroke across both cylinders. So, there is always a one stroke period of time for the box to refill before the next stroke. However, in reality it would refill almost instantly. Just another way to visualize how much time to move air in before it's used again.

A Triple (like Tiger) would be pulling in air constantly, but only by 1/3 the total perceived need. Aaaah....what rambling we've created. But fun conversation, nonetheless. Air is a fluid, yes, but compressible gas, thus much faster equalizing. There is an infinite amount constantly available at the ready. Behaves nothing like a liquid.

2) a good Dyno Operator should be able to give you one curve containing the best of both worlds "as a practical matter". Are you planning to RACE your F8? If so, then yeah...I could see a need for an absolute max HP curve. But I'm guessing that doesn't serve your best interest for the long haul. The custom tuning along with the new fuel control measures will likely produce such nice results, it will all be better than what you had before (assuming the stock ECU was not properly optimized). Caution: Extra Curves only cost me extra money. I only did it for experimentation and knowledge. I always ended up settling on one permanent best compromise.....very happily. FWIW

3) in matters of the Dyno Map versus the AT....

The Dyno will be used to build a "Fuel Map". That is the table with +/- adjustments in fuel injected. This is the one that matters most and will be left (or loaded) into your PCV. When the Toggle Switch (a separate item you must install) is turned OFF, you will be running on this fuel map. The PCV actually has the capability to hold a separate fuel map for every single gear on the bike. So, to take full advantage of such a sophisticated system, you need to wire in the gear indicator wire (where you pull that from on the F8, I am clueless). Consequently, done properly your Tuner will build 6 separate maps....one each gear. It's not mandatory but very beneficial.

When you download maps on Internet from Dynojet, you are receiving a Fuel Map variation. The Fuel Map has no bearing on the Auto-Tuner (AT). And the AT won't do a darn thing until you a build (fill in) the AFR table (Air Fuel Ratio)....but with what? No one really ever says....and I've not seen one to copy over. SO, you start with nothing and begin guessing....which could be inefficient at best, and harmful to the motor at worst. I finally settled on loading an AFR value of 13.2% across my entire table for my WRR.

When the Toggle is turned ON, the AT unit is self-adjusting the fuel curve (all over the place) until the O2 sensor is reading that exact value at that particular set of parameters (RPM & TPS)...nanosecond by nanosecond. My experience on the WRR was that the AT was reacting faster than the ECU could process....making the performance a bit choppy and unsettled in on/off...stop & go Trail conditions. So, I learned to always turn off my AT and go to my main fuel curve whenever offroad. The AT was clearly best employed in more steady state riding along roads & slab. Just be very careful NOT to accept the Trim Values imposed on the fuel curve (temporarily) by the AT unit whenever you plug in your computer to the PCV. as that will permanently overwrite the curve you paid dearly to create on the Dyno. If you saved a copy of that file on your PC, then no sweat.....you can always reload your Main Dyno curve. I must have saved mine in 3 separate places, I think. .

My $2,000 worth anyway.....

HF
Ha ha ha.... Yes amigo... what have we done............... We shal see on the intake side.... You could be correct.... I could be correct..... Your in Dallas...Yes...???? I will be in Dallas somewhere between April, and June for a few weeks at the DFW area riding the stimulator for our new aircraft..... Dyno hits nothing with the box open... I buy the espresso...... Dyno goes bonkers with the box open..... You buy it..... and then we have a scotch..... Gonna be interesting, as it is purely is speculation. I have complete confidence in Eddie. I have watched him work his magic on their crf 450, and at the time the SXW. His bikes wins races, but more importantly he is a good man, that knows his stuff. In all practicality, I would have enjoyed one box, like the katoom guys can re flash their ecu.... But it is what it is. I think it might take a little.... read a lot learning on my behalf, But I am assured that I will not use low end torque. I saw that when he build my other thumper. Most will say that it lost low end torque, but it just is transparent as it takes off rather fast above 4-5k rpm. His race bikes spend most of the trottke either on or off, so delicate trail work might be something different than that. Visited another racer in Kali over the weekend, and he mentioned that on todays modern fi mx racers... The hardest part of riding them is from the truck bed to the track........ I think we are not alone on the monkey jumping stuff. Just waiting for the return. There will be pictures...... and videos..... and ehhhh.... uhhhhmmm... grin's.... and such...
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Old 02-13-2013, 04:36 AM   #28
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. Quien Sabe'

Guess it comes down to how much fuel you are willing to burn versus what you get for it in return. If you can gain 20% HP and not fall below 45 mpg fuel consumption, forget the espresso....I'll buy you a Steak. . Without a Turbocharger, I might add.

I'm in Tulsa, not Dallas. But that's only about a 5 hour ride. I like riding the central Texas Hill Country. Keep my posted. A Simulator ride would be fun too! .

HF

Ps. Someone has to play the antagonist........
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Old 02-13-2013, 05:28 AM   #29
ebrabaek OP
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. Quien Sabe'

Guess it comes down to how much fuel you are willing to burn versus what you get for it in return. If you can gain 20% HP and not fall below 45 mpg fuel consumption, forget the espresso....I'll buy you a Steak. . Without a Turbocharger, I might add.

I'm in Tulsa, not Dallas. But that's only about a 5 hour ride. I like riding the central Texas Hill Country. Keep my posted. A Simulator ride would be fun too! .

HF

Ps. Someone has to play the antagonist........
Ha ha ha.... Sorry.... for some reason, I thought you were in Dallas..... I am hoping to eventually find and adjust the map to meet somewhere in the middle, as I do not want to give up the economy option. But if there is a way to for example to have that nice power, and the ability to turn it off, that would simply be fantastic. But what worries me, that hearing from other that have done this, they go silent as they were indicating that they would report back as more miles and fine tuning went underway. Perhaps I am swimming up the waterfall..... But at least I am swimming.....
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Old 02-13-2013, 12:00 PM   #30
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There actually IS a way to achieve this, but it could be painful....depending how well you want to perfect it.

You must build an AFR table with the proper inputs for best fuel economy (only). What those values actually are across the grid (RPM vs TPS increments) is the crap shoot. But your Tuner might have some excellent suggestions AFTER finishing his work.

Plug those numbers in the table, then flip on the AT switchand go ride the bike down the slab a fair bit to let the AT trim the fuel adjustments to hone in on the target AFR's. Then, immediately get back on Dyno to see what the AT adjustments are producing. That should tell you where, if any, you need to make any further adjustments to the AFR entries in the AFR table. And, you'll feel better about your AFR settings being proper. Remember, you are after maximum fuel economy here....but certainy don't want to be running too lean, of course. This will predominantly be your "cruise" mode.

If you get that sorted out, then it's:

Switch Off = Max Power (running Dyno produced best fuel table)

Switch On = Max Fuel Economy (running AT trims to hit AFR table)

Works great!

As I mentioned, I simpily populated my AFR table with 13.2% in every cell. Probably didn't get maximum fuel economy possible, but I had to draw a line somewhere! I was already three separate Dyno runs into my WRR project at that point, not to mention everything else. But, I was very happy with the result.

Hope all this makes since to you. The instructions that came with my PCV & AT we're rather lacking to put it kindly. The Dynojet techs (on phone) tweren't much better help at the time. They couldn't (or wouldn't) recommend AFR values to load into that Table. Took me a while to figure out the AT unit wasn't doing a darn thing while the AFR table was empty...duh, you have to give it a target to hit. Stupid Me...

HF
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