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Old 02-11-2013, 12:49 AM   #16
gunnerbuck
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Originally Posted by Steve G. View Post
It must be tough to back yourself into a corner as a consumer. No Walmart, Home Depot, Safeway, Sears, The Bay, Zellers, Target, Costco, UAP/NAPA, McDonalds, Wendy's, Chevron, Esso, Shell, General Motors, Ford, Chrysler, Labatts, Seagrams, Terasen Gas, Canadian Pacific, Noranda Mines, Alcan, Tim Hortons, CCM, Bauer, Cooper, CN Rail, etc, etc, etc, all forgein owned companies within Canada, selling, buying, employeeing.

Honestly you guys, you should listen to yourself. You basically do not want any resource extraction,,admit it. You want us to just sit here with our VAST wood, gas, oil, minerals,,,,all needed to gain royalties to pay for "expected entitlements" by,,,,you guys, and just do nothing with it. Our lumber jobs left when the successfull unions negotiated fantastic contracts, which unfortunately rendered the Canadian lumber/forest workers too expensive on world markets.
I was a contractor for Macmillan Blodell Canadian White Pine division for 20 yrs, at a time when I was making REALLY good money as a tradesman, the workers there were making double what I was making, with no trade, and 1/2 of them could not even spell, or prevent their knuckles from dragging the ground, or drooling on their t-shirts. They became too expensive!!! Get it???
Look, we got to sell stuff, that's what we have, and lots of it. We need it to pay for stuff. Join reality. We all can't be hippie tree huggers who collect a welfare cheque on Wednesday, and camp out beating drums about big bad government, big bad business, big bad BIG in general. Well, maybe we can all just do nothing, get free everything, and let the next 3 generations pay for it. I've got no kids, I could care less about any debt when I'm gone.

Get a grip Steve, if I was against resource extraction I wouldn't have a job... What I would like to see is some value added thought put into the way it is done... As I stated before, even with unprecedented resource extraction revenues coming in, the governments continue to run a deficit... So maybe instead of opening up more resource extraction fronts the powers that be should change the way they piss through the huge revenue already generated...

I do believe you when you say you could care less about the future generations with the way you present your me, myself and I views, but everyone is entitled to an opinion...

As for myself, I do have kids and I hope something is left for them and their kids...
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Old 02-11-2013, 05:51 AM   #17
jackd
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Get a grip Steve, if I was against resource extraction I wouldn't have a job... What I would like to see is some value added thought put into the way it is done... As I stated before, even with unprecedented resource extraction revenues coming in, the governments continue to run a deficit... So maybe instead of opening up more resource extraction fronts the powers that be should change the way they piss through the huge revenue already generated...

I do believe you when you say you could care less about the future generations with the way you present your me, myself and I views, but everyone is entitled to an opinion...

As for myself, I do have kids and I hope something is left for them and their kids...
I usually don't get involved in these discussions but I have to give Gunnerbuck the thumbs up in his response to your posting Steve. I'm going to put it to you - maybe you should listen to yourself and do a re-think on how you are projecting your views on this forum. My feet are in both worlds of this discussion - I live in a dying resource community on Vancouver Island but I work over on the Lower Mainland, surrounded by many self satisfied/self centred cohorts who originate from that area. I suffer through their very unsympathetic view of the world but forgive them for they originate from an economically stable region and have never known how an economic downturn can turn a community on its head. The worst are the ones who don't have children and don't care about the future. Thankfully my time with them is coming to an end and I can turn my back on that area and immerse myself in this much more pleasant segment of BC society that I have decided to join on V.I. Your 'hippy tree hugger' statement says it all and maybe you put it out there to get a reaction from us - I hope there is more to you than what I am reading. I've met you on occasion in previous years and perceive you to be thoughtful and welcoming - I'm not seeing that here.
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Old 02-11-2013, 07:36 AM   #18
Steve G.
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Originally Posted by jackd View Post
I usually don't get involved in these discussions but I have to give Gunnerbuck the thumbs up in his response to your posting Steve. I'm going to put it to you - maybe you should listen to yourself and do a re-think on how you are projecting your views on this forum. My feet are in both worlds of this discussion - I live in a dying resource community on Vancouver Island but I work over on the Lower Mainland, surrounded by many self satisfied/self centred cohorts who originate from that area. I suffer through their very unsympathetic view of the world but forgive them for they originate from an economically stable region and have never known how an economic downturn can turn a community on its head. The worst are the ones who don't have children and don't care about the future. Thankfully my time with them is coming to an end and I can turn my back on that area and immerse myself in this much more pleasant segment of BC society that I have decided to join on V.I. Your 'hippy tree hugger' statement says it all and maybe you put it out there to get a reaction from us - I hope there is more to you than what I am reading. I've met you on occasion in previous years and perceive you to be thoughtful and welcoming - I'm not seeing that here.

I stand by my response except the part where I state I don't care about debt. I really do, and realize that unless we offer the world,,,,something,,,,we shall enter into a situation like southern Europe, Japan, and VERY soon, USA. Debt is the destruction of everything.
We simply must sell stuff. Adding value to any resource we have is an outstanding idea, and must be done at every opportunity. However, it must be done with a view to being attractively priced on the world market. I'm sorry, $300+/day does no compete well against $2-20/day. Governments of varying stripes have tried for decades to 'prop up' uncompetitive businesses here with mind to keep jobs alive, all failed because the money spent always was more than the whole economic feedback. As it is now, that we are selling raw logs to anyone who wants and collecting royalties, there is no other economically feesable option. Forcing companies to set up shop to cut logs here in order to gain access to our lumber will simply mean nobody will set up shop to cut wood. Really simple lads.
And so, we either sell our stuff, or we become the worlds largest park, and become an economic backwater like PEI, happy to be a net consumer to our country rather than a net contributor.
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Old 02-11-2013, 08:31 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Steve G. View Post
However, it must be done with a view to being attractively priced on the world market. I'm sorry, $300+/day does no compete well against $2-20/day. Governments of varying stripes have tried for decades to 'prop up' uncompetitive businesses here with mind to keep jobs alive, all failed because the money spent always was more than the whole economic feedback. As it is now, that we are selling raw logs to anyone who wants and collecting royalties, there is no other economically feesable option. Forcing companies to set up shop to cut logs here in order to gain access to our lumber will simply mean nobody will set up shop to cut wood. Really simple lads.
And so, we either sell our stuff, or we become the worlds largest park, and become an economic backwater like PEI, happy to be a net consumer to our country rather than a net contributor.
Sorry Steve, but your evidence in support of uncontrolled resource extraction doesn't wash. I sit here in the North Cowichan and not 1 km away is a WFP shipping facility which is regularly loading dimension lumber onto ships for various destinations. Very impressive it is to watch, it is. So yes there is viable added value industry happening all around you.

I'm used to getting the endless drivel of the need to cut our costs and export our resources from the mainstream media - which is one reason that I don't subscribe to the G & M or watch cable TV these days. I just really find it tiresome hearing it from some financially well off person (yes, you told me how you attained your wealth - good on you for having it) - especially when they prescribe a race for the bottom as a solution, while what they are promoting doesn't affect them. Where I work, we just gave notices to 300 people (many of them have families to support). Unfortunately I was not one of them - I'm waiting for a VSP instead....
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Old 02-11-2013, 10:14 AM   #20
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Sorry Steve, but your evidence in support of uncontrolled resource extraction doesn't wash. I sit here in the North Cowichan and not 1 km away is a WFP shipping facility which is regularly loading dimension lumber onto ships for various destinations. Very impressive it is to watch, it is. So yes there is viable added value industry happening all around you.

I'm used to getting the endless drivel of the need to cut our costs and export our resources from the mainstream media - which is one reason that I don't subscribe to the G & M or watch cable TV these days. I just really find it tiresome hearing it from some financially well off person (yes, you told me how you attained your wealth - good on you for having it) - especially when they prescribe a race for the bottom as a solution, while what they are promoting doesn't affect them. Where I work, we just gave notices to 300 people (many of them have families to support). Unfortunately I was not one of them - I'm waiting for a VSP instead....
I'm not sure what personal wealth of this thread's attendee's has anything to do about anything. I'm not sure that the moderators of this forum would consider it correct that personal disclosures of anyone's private dealings in a negative manner to be in the best interests of anyone. That I am considered a wealthy person by anyone is very laughable. Consider me exceedingly frugal. However, if I was considered rich [another chuckle] I do not remember any bylaw restricting well off people being any less loud than those that block streets, yell obsenities at meeting attendees, and otherwise cause social disruption. We all have a right to do what we do.
Not once, not once, have I called for uncontrolled resource extraction. But we must have extraction to pay for your pension, and health care, as well as mine, and everyone elses. Anyone who calls for it to end, is in my opinion, pretty dis-ingenuous. We all jump on our gasoline powered, [Alberta tar sands sourced] bikes, strictly as a means of pleasure, not to save the world. We either burn wood, oil, or gas as a means to heat our homes. If a certain view is given, it should be followed up with examples of backing up ones' views. I consider it a common fact that most Canadians are really quick to talk the talk, but rarely back it up.

Regarding the original poster's comments, I consider the Canadian Centre for Policy alternatives, and the right wing equivalent Fraser Institute to both be nothing more than political shills, who's comments BOTH must be taken with severe reservation keeping with the fact that they are both politically biased, which as we all know, political biased opinion and views to be poison of the mind to weak thinking citizens.
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Old 02-11-2013, 03:16 PM   #21
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Good to get a dialogue going, and hear member's differing perspectives/experiences:

Please read the article (http://blogs.theprovince.com/2013/01...rest-giveaway/) and speak out/up !
There's an election coming folks, tell Steve Thompson you dont want your forests given away !
steve.thomson.mla@leg.bc.ca
- Office phone # 250 387-6240, constituency phone # 250 712-3620

"....the bill would give the provincial cabinet powers to grant forest companies de facto private control over public forestlands without first having to notify or consult with the public.
Instead of companies enjoying rights to log set volumes of trees on public forestlands, companies would gain dramatically expanded powers to log trees on defined areas that in effect become their own semi-private fiefdoms."

"f the new legislation passes, the provincial cabinet could grant forest companies the rights to roll over numerous volume-based forest licences into area-based Tree Farm Licences. TFLs bestow by far the most secure rights of access to publicly owned trees of any arrangement with the provincial government. The new legislation could massively expand their use, beyond the limited number now issued."
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Old 02-11-2013, 07:02 PM   #22
Jeathrow Bowdean
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My Dad has been involved with politics for 40 years to no value. My brother has been involved for 30 years with no value.

We are to small to stop the boat we are in, and there is no getting out of this "A LIVE."
I am not a smart man, nor can I change the world with a small vote being that the "Goverment" will take the direction it wants.

We see this in closers and restriction to all of our freedoms everyday. Don't go here, and don't do that is all I see across Canada in all directions. Our time is better spent doing what we can do as the stuff around us closes the doors and gates to keep us out. I've been all across North America and we can try to do something, but it will end up with no value being that we can't go it alone now that the world runs on spent funds from long ago.

I would like to see change just like you guys, but it's not going to happen because Canadian's except things the way they are. My Dad's generation had the chance to do this, but it never happened, so we are better living with the little bit we have and enjoy it well it lasts. The day will come that the ball will fall and it will all be over. Live today I say, and be happy if towmorow comes.

From Jeathrow Bowdean PS: If I could change the world, what kind of world would it be !!!
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Old 02-11-2013, 07:53 PM   #23
Steve G.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by offworlder View Post
Good to get a dialogue going, and hear member's differing perspectives/experiences:

Please read the article (http://blogs.theprovince.com/2013/01...rest-giveaway/) and speak out/up !
There's an election coming folks, tell Steve Thompson you dont want your forests given away !
steve.thomson.mla@leg.bc.ca
- Office phone # 250 387-6240, constituency phone # 250 712-3620

"....the bill would give the provincial cabinet powers to grant forest companies de facto private control over public forestlands without first having to notify or consult with the public.
Instead of companies enjoying rights to log set volumes of trees on public forestlands, companies would gain dramatically expanded powers to log trees on defined areas that in effect become their own semi-private fiefdoms."

"f the new legislation passes, the provincial cabinet could grant forest companies the rights to roll over numerous volume-based forest licences into area-based Tree Farm Licences. TFLs bestow by far the most secure rights of access to publicly owned trees of any arrangement with the provincial government. The new legislation could massively expand their use, beyond the limited number now issued."

It's pretty evident that the provincial Liberals are going to get voted out within the next 3 months [good riddence if you ask me] and with the new NDP government, I'd bet money they'll be sending all the forest licenses into the recycle bin, and then close down the forest service roads to allow them to be reclaimed by erosion. Either way, there's reduced access to the dual sport motorcyclist, so better get a passport to ride down south if you want offroad riding. They still take it with passion down there.
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Old 02-12-2013, 12:44 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Jeathrow Bowdean View Post
...nor can I change the world with a small vote being that the "Goverment" will take the direction it wants.

...Our time is better spent doing what we can do as the stuff around us closes the doors and gates to keep us out.

I would like to see change just like you guys, but it's not going to happen because Canadian's except things the way they are.
Sadly, its this kind of apathy that (some Canadians are known for that) allows these types of laws to pass...
Speak while you still have a voice !
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Old 02-12-2013, 12:49 AM   #25
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Either way, there's reduced access to the dual sport motorcyclist
Yup - the Liberals are gone, good riddance indeed.
However, I see a significant difference in roads that are deemed inaccessible due to decommissioning, vs. private claim....
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Old 02-12-2013, 09:45 AM   #26
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Yup - the Liberals are gone, good riddance indeed.
However, I see a significant difference in roads that are deemed inaccessible due to decommissioning, vs. private claim....

The only difference I see is one pays royalties towards social services, the other pays nothing to social services.
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Old 02-12-2013, 04:48 PM   #27
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I really wish it wasn't this way Off Worlder, because stuff like this not only affects us motorcycle guys, but the whole power sports industry. The snowmobile areas are disappearing out in BC, and the quad and motorcycles spots fall into the same catagory as "Power Sports or Motorized Off Road Vehicals."

Blue River Ground Hog Mountain is closed, Mica Dam 50 mile is closed, Valmont Chappel was down sizes and will soon be closed. Parts of the Kettle Valley Rail Way are now closed to motorized units, and I could keep going on the BC stuff, but I don't have enough space.

Alberta has restricted motorized quads from 4 Countys such as County of Lacombe, Ponoka, some prats of MD 99, and Wheat Land with more to follow. The Eastern Slopes of Alberta has lots of closers going on over the last 8 years, and the day will come that the Forsety Trunk Road and West will be closed off indefinitely. All cattle pasters are now under the land holders licences, and many of them are now closed to off road units all year long.

Saskatchewan's River valleys in some spots are under the Provincal Goverment Sustinable Resources, and they are looking at what the other Provinces are doing with motorized off road units as well, and many of the people that live in these areas have had enough of the quads, bikes, and sleds wrecking trees and erosion to the river banks, so I would not think that the Goverment would not class our dual sport bikes in this class.

Ontario closes snowmobile trails to all off road quads, bikes, and dual sport bike in many of the spots in the southern areas to prevent deep ruts and erossion of soil where they cross wet spots and farm land, but people can't read these signs, so some of these snowmobile trails were close indefinitely. and this has happen in the Southern part of Quebec and East.
"In some areas."

The USA has closers and signs of where you can go and not go with quads, dirt bikes which in cludes dual sport bikes in every State. If it was free rain of the land, then the idiots would track up ever corner of land they could, so the best tool to handle all the problems is Close Close and Close. This is sad, but true in most cases.
The only way to fight these, is to be bigger then the nay sayers, but this will not happen. The other option is to do what you are doing and pretend you didn't see the sign or the gate. If you don't feel good about doing that, then find some spot that is open or stay on the roads that are open.
Western Canada has well over 1 million miles of logging and oil patch roads, and most of them will take you some where. If you don't have acess to logging roads in your area, then it's time to find something else, or move to where you can have this freedom. My freedom is 1 hour West of where I live, and this is the best that I can do. When it is closed off, then I will have to move to where it is open and watch this happen again.

From Jeathrow Bowdean PS: I can't change the world I live in because I'm not smart enough, but I can live with what I have, so if less is more, then this is the world that offers me less !!!
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Old 02-13-2013, 05:44 AM   #28
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It's pretty evident that the provincial Liberals are going to get voted out within the next 3 months [good riddence if you ask me] and with the new NDP government, I'd bet money they'll be sending all the forest licenses into the recycle bin, and then close down the forest service roads to allow them to be reclaimed by erosion. Either way, there's reduced access to the dual sport motorcyclist, so better get a passport to ride down south if you want offroad riding. They still take it with passion down there.

You say: ALL forest licences into the recycle bin, via the NDP?
I'll take that bet.
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Old 02-14-2013, 07:12 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by offworlder View Post
Good to get a dialogue going, and hear member's differing perspectives/experiences:

Please read the article (http://blogs.theprovince.com/2013/01...rest-giveaway/) and speak out/up !
There's an election coming folks, tell Steve Thompson you dont want your forests given away !
steve.thomson.mla@leg.bc.ca
- Office phone # 250 387-6240, constituency phone # 250 712-3620

"....the bill would give the provincial cabinet powers to grant forest companies de facto private control over public forestlands without first having to notify or consult with the public.
Instead of companies enjoying rights to log set volumes of trees on public forestlands, companies would gain dramatically expanded powers to log trees on defined areas that in effect become their own semi-private fiefdoms."

"f the new legislation passes, the provincial cabinet could grant forest companies the rights to roll over numerous volume-based forest licences into area-based Tree Farm Licences. TFLs bestow by far the most secure rights of access to publicly owned trees of any arrangement with the provincial government. The new legislation could massively expand their use, beyond the limited number now issued."
I wrote Steve Thompson an email a couple of days ago expressing my concern over this.

I haven't heard anything back yet and I was just wondering if anyone else had?

Thanks!

Dave
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Old 02-15-2013, 08:10 PM   #30
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I read the article in the link in the original post. Maybe some one could point out to me where it said that forest companies were going to control the land and access. If I had a big (or small) mill and couldn't get secure wood suplies I would sell out. My employees that were any good would find other jobs if they wanted to work. The weak ones of course would play the balme game for a while and then self destruct or move on.
Not saying that is the "nice guy" way of doing it but that is in fact what would happen. Investing in updating a mill with no raw material is poor busines. Good business pays for social programs, schools ect. No, really.
Ever wonder why hippies haven't taken over the world? Sure some have fulfiling lives minding their own business doing their thing. As a hybrid redneck/hippie I'm all for it. The Angry Hippie will always be shit on by society because they like to whine,blow things out of proportion so they look like they could be off importance. Most of all why all the amature and professional protesters get ignored more and more is that they almost never offer any solutions. That earns peoples respect and gets attention. Also so many are hippocrates.
Some thing else we should all consider when talking of value added and of off shore sales. While of course we all need well paying jobs and should get value for our natural resources who would we get to operate these new mills and manufacturing facilities? Baby boomers are all retireing soon. Right now I can't think of even one person in my circle that needs work and can't find it. Now is a great time for BC to get other countries as steady customers for forest products and natural gas. High tech is highly mobile and can be gone by morning. Trees and gas they have to come to us for.
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