Motorcycle Batteries .. AGM, GEL, Wet, Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4)

[_cy_]

Originally Posted by Wanderer2012

CY...

Thanks for your reply, and info... Now that got me thinking, so thought id share some thoughts, see if you have any answers...

04 R1100S, 10k miles, Original BMW Battery, 19mah gel i think, with a don't sell date of end 07, bike sold new end of 07...

Our summer temps 80f to 90f, winter down around the 30f, summer now, and while riding around town the other day, stop start at many lights, i decided to kill the motor at lights using the kill switch, which means the lights on, indicator on, ignition still live, when the lights go green hit the starter and go...

So the thinking is not to sit idling for ages, getting the motor temps up, but obviously putting more stress on the battery and starter...

How much juice is being used doing that, and would a Shorai handle that...

The listed Shorai battery for my bike is LFX21L6-BS12

I use Lipo, and Life batteries in model planes, and have the charging gear with balancers...
Keen to save a lot of weight, standard battery is 6.4kg...

I figure i shall need to replace the battery before long, its got to be on the way out for its age if nothing else, really surprised its still there, and working...

Cheers Jeremy

what you are describing will put a brutal drain on proposed Shorai LFX21 ... turning motor off for several minutes with about 11 amp draw, if your bike has 2x 55watt headlights. then starting motor ...

then repeat for unknown number of times in traffic without allowing engine ample time to charge battery back up.

Shorai LFX 21 measured about 6 amp hour under a 1C discharge ... this means that battery will sustain 6 amp drain for one hour. or 30 minutes under 12amp discharge.

your headlights don't understand PB/EQ .. they drain real amps.

my recommendations are Odyssey 925 with 26AH, unfortunately 24lb... otherwise Shorai LFX36 with about 12AH (actual) might do it .. if you charged to full before you started and your total down time not exceed 60 minutes @ 12amp drain.

you'd be better off turning off bike with key, killing everything including lights during stops

watch this video, which stress LFX18 battery very similar to what you described

[Global Rider]

Originally Posted by Les_Garten

I have a Battery Charger question.

I have a PC925 in my Beemer.

I just put an Odyssey 31m-pc2150 in my Landcruiser. Big MoFo!

I'm looking for a good 40-50 Amp charger that will do AGM batteries well. It is confusing and I can't seem to find a good site addressing car chargers well.

Les, charger advertizing and promises of "hope" are as bad as oil additive snake oil ads. I am amazed what junk some of the well known charger manufacturers sell, and high priced at that.

We tested several chargers here at our Defense labs and the Xantrex TrueCharge 2 was by far the best. We bought a slew of them. And when I say "tested", we tested all aspects of them; current, voltages, temperature compensation, fault and alarm indications, etc.

They are available in various outputs. Note only the 20, 40 and 60 amp units can take a remote battery temperature sensor (most chargers put them in the charger ) and the remote panel enabling you to reduce the max current rate.

These aren't toys and as a result cost a few hundred dollars. But they do handle all types of batteries: FLA, AGM, GEL, Pb-Ca.

I have some pics here.

From the home of the plain old low-tech flooded lead acid battery, now in its 14th year and still starting my car at -20F.

[Les_Garten]

Originally Posted by Global Rider

Les, charger advertizing and promises of "hope" are as bad as oil additive snake oil ads. I am amazed what junk some of the well known charger manufacturers sell, and high priced at that.

We tested several chargers here at our Defense labs and the Xantrex TrueCharge 2 was by far the best. We bought a slew of them. And when I say "tested", we tested all aspects of them; current, voltages, temperature compensation, fault and alarm indications, etc.

They are available in various outputs. Note only the 20, 40 and 60 amp units can take a remote battery temperature sensor (most chargers put them in the charger ) and the remote panel enabling you to reduce the max current rate.

These aren't toys and as a result cost a few hundred dollars. But they do handle all types of batteries: FLA, AGM, GEL, Pb-Ca.

I have some pics here.

From the home of the plain old low-tech flooded lead acid battery, now in its 14th year and still starting my car at -20F.

Thanx for that. I was aware of that charger and that it was rated pretty well. Finding a place that does good reviews of this type of charger is hard to find. And most of this stuff is Rebadged Reptile renderings as was noted.

Do you kow of a good website for this type of battery related stuff? Car batterries as well?

What did you think of that CTEK charger?

[Global Rider]

Originally Posted by Les_Garten

Do you kow of a good website for this type of battery related stuff? Car batteries as well?

Not really. Magazine and web-based sites that do evaluations are shallow at best. Understandably since your average consumer couldn't argue any of the results.

Check out Battery University and the East Penn Technical Manual (AGM & Gel battery paper)

Originally Posted by Les_Garten

What did you think of that CTEK charger?

For the money, its OK and no better or worse than anything else in that price range.

I brought both of my 3300 Multi US models in to our lab and had a Graphtec monitor voltage and current during charging. I never did see the float mode that is advertized. It goes to 14.3V (in normal battery mode), then shuts off and restarts at 12.5V which is my prefered method of charging. When I used a manual charger, I would monitor the voltage and when fully charged, disconnect it. When it self discharged over a few months to 12.6V, I would connect the charger again. That was for a battery out-of-vehicle. I use a HP DC supply at the moment (I'm the microprocessor and charging algorithm ).

[Les_Garten]

Originally Posted by Global Rider

I would connect the charger again. That was for a battery out-of-vehicle. I use a HP DC supply at the moment (I'm the microprocessor and charging algorithm ).

I have 2 HP power supplies that I was going to wire in series to give 24 vDC / 1600w to go into an iCharger or Cellpro PL-8. I was wondering about going this route versus the Xantrex you mentioned? I still have those power supplies.

The Xantrex 40 and 60a models want a pretty good sized minimum bank of batteries and I can't meet that if I just hook up a PC925 without my other batteries.

[_cy_]

Originally Posted by Global Rider

Not really. Magazine and web-based sites that do evaluations are shallow at best. Understandably since your average consumer couldn't argue any of the results.

Check out Battery University and the East Penn Technical Manual (AGM & Gel battery paper)



For the money, its OK and no better or worse than anything else in that price range.

I brought both of my 3300 Multi US models in to our lab and had a Graphtec monitor voltage and current during charging. I never did see the float mode that is advertized. It goes to 14.3V (in normal battery mode), then shuts off and restarts at 12.5V which is my prefered method of charging. When I used a manual charger, I would monitor the voltage and when fully charged, disconnect it. When it self discharged over a few months to 12.6V, I would connect the charger again. That was for a battery out-of-vehicle. I use a HP DC supply at the moment (I'm the microprocessor and charging algorithm ).

thanks very much for sharing!

flooded PB amazingly still has it's place. when taken care of will provide excellent service life. it's not that long ago when AGM was considered new technology. price points for AGM has come down enough for AGM to become mainstream. hopefully the same will happen with LiFePO4 batteries.

lithium iron phosphate batteries has one of the lowest raw materials costs of any battery. there is no shortage of iron on this planet. hopefully public's acceptance for LiFePO4 batteries will translate into higher volumes/lower costs.

Battery University has always been one of the best sources for technical information on the WWW. unfortunately it's weakness is a lack of depth for the most promising of all battery chemistries. LiFePO4 or lithium iron phosphate ... called Li-phosphate in chart below.

in the fast changing world of batteries ... there's always been a trade off between maximum energy density and safety.

lithium cobalt hands down wins the energy density prize. but scores low on the safety side and needs elaborate safeguards to prevent lithium cobalt batteries from going into thermal runaway like on Boeing 787.

LiFePO4 currently wins the compromise between energy density and safety. unfortunately corporate's rather large investments in lithium cobalt chemistries prevents/hinders it from moving forward. unfortunately costs/time for meeting Federal guidelines prevents/hinders change to much SAFER LiFePO4 batteries in critical applications like main ship batteries on Boeing 787.

[Global Rider]

Originally Posted by Les_Garten

The Xantrex 40 and 60a models want a pretty good sized minimum bank of batteries and I can't meet that if I just hook up a PC925 without my other batteries.

The optional remote panel allows you to set 20, 40, 60 and 80% of the charger's rated current. Its an additional cost, but has many other features as well.

As for the power supplies, as long as you are willing to do the monitoring.

[Global Rider]

Originally Posted by _cy_

flooded PB amazingly still has it's place. when taken care of will provide excellent service life.

You bet it does and when it does everything needed, it is all one needs for vehicle use.

Why would I pay twice or three times the cost of my FLA battery if I don't get twice or three times the life out of a lithium battery. Careful now, I get roughly 10 years out of a seasonal battery and 18 years out of a car battery.

Starter RPM? Who cares as long as it starts which it does on the first second.

Weight? Who cares; your average person could stand to shed 20+ pounds.

I see GM lost one of their test facilities. Hmmmm.

[awalker14]

Any issues jumping a weak Shorai or other lithium battery from a regular 12 volt motorcycle battery with good cables?

[B.C.Biker]

So what is the secret to getting 14 years from a car battery? Been using a smart charger for a little while on all my vehicles "every now and then" expecially in the winter months. Got 7 1/2 years out of one. Any thing I could do better?

[_cy_]

Originally Posted by awalker14

Any issues jumping a weak Shorai or other lithium battery from a regular 12 volt motorcycle battery with good cables?

an excellent question ... the short answer is no issues jump starting a low LiFePO4 battery with a PB battery.

think voltage/current in terms of water flowing through a pipe.
volts = pressure of water
current = flow of water ... larger the pipe, more water flows through

LiFePO4 = low internal resistance = Huge pipe
PB = high internal resistance = little pipe

a fully charged PB battery is 12.85v flooded PB to 13v AGM.

a fully charged LiFePO4 battery is 14.6v to 12.8v at 20% condition. so very little current will flow into discharged LiFePO4 battery from a fully charged PB battery.

lithium batteries has very low internal resistance and will accept a charge at about same rate as discharge. for instance if a LiFePO4 cell is rated for 28C momentary discharge... that cell will accept a charge at that rate too. which could be very bad for low LiFePO4 battery, if hooked up to another fully charged 14.6v LiFePO4 battery.

most LiFePO4 cell mfg spec charge rates at .5C to 1C charge rates to allow time for cell to absorb current.

this issue comes up in series/parallel battery pack configurations. when/if one cell goes bad, rest of cells in nearby parallel stack will attempt to charge up bad stack. resulting in a pack that will never reach full charge. worst case a melted down battery.

which brings up one of the main advantage of LiFePO4 cells ... it's very difficult to cause a LiFePO4 battery to catch on fire ... then resulting fire will not be any where close a catastrophic, thermal runaway like lithium cobalt battery used in Boeing 787.

[Wanderer2012]

Originally Posted by _cy_

what you are describing will put a brutal drain on proposed Shorai LFX21 ... turning motor off for several minutes with about 11 amp draw, if your bike has 2x 55watt headlights. then starting motor ...

then repeat for unknown number of times in traffic without allowing engine ample time to charge battery back up.

Shorai LFX 21 measured about 6 amp hour under a 1C discharge ... this means that battery will sustain 6 amp drain for one hour. or 30 minutes under 12amp discharge.

your headlights don't understand PB/EQ .. they drain real amps.

my recommendations are Odyssey 925 with 26AH, unfortunately 24lb... otherwise Shorai LFX36 with about 12AH (actual) might do it .. if you charged to full before you started and your total down time not exceed 60 minutes @ 12amp drain.

you'd be better off turning off bike with key, killing everything including lights during stops

watch this video, which stress LFX18 battery very similar to what you described

CY...
Ok cool, thanks heaps for sharing your thoughts and wisdom...
I never related to the headlight using so much power, currently has a H1 Bulb, 55w halogen, one only, but by the time we add in tail light, stop light, ignition, indicators, and a hit on the starter motor, i can see the battery getting a hard time...
That said this scenario isn't a often event, but just an extreme that got me thinking, given its summer time, and while stop start riding the other day i decided to shut her down each time i had to sit at a red, try keep the engine temp down being air cooled and all...

I see the big 36 Shorai is up in the mid $300 range, so that will be more toward $500 of my money, time it gets here, so thats out...
How long would you expect a BMW Gel 19ah to last, Im very suprised having just bought my bike, to find its original battery still in there and going ok...

Also just started using a charger, CTEK XS3600, But have been using on motorbike mode, and now just read online i need to use the car mode, Is it a good idea to use often and leave on for extended periods, my bike seems to be out maybe once a week currently, but less when winter comes...

Just a thought, How good a job does the BMW bike system do at charging the Shorai type battery, as it wasn't designed to do so... Think the listed output on my bike is 600w...

Thanks for the very informative thread to...

Cheers Jeremy

[_cy_]

Originally Posted by Wanderer2012

CY...
Ok cool, thanks heaps for sharing your thoughts and wisdom...
I never related to the headlight using so much power, currently has a H1 Bulb, 55w halogen, one only, but by the time we add in tail light, stop light, ignition, indicators, and a hit on the starter motor, i can see the battery getting a hard time... ~

How long would you expect a BMW Gel 19ah to last, Im very suprised having just bought my bike, to find its original battery still in there and going ok...~

Just a thought, How good a job does the BMW bike system do at charging the Shorai type battery, as it wasn't designed to do so... Think the listed output on my bike is 600w...

Thanks for the very informative thread to...

Cheers Jeremy

almost all 12v charging systems operate from 13.8v to 14.2v which mates perfectly with LiFePO4 batteries. since max charge occurs at 14.6v for LiFePO4, it's impossible to overcharge with a normal charging system.

properly taken care of PB based batteries can last a very long time indeed. best condition to store PB battery is fully charged.

AGM has the lowest self discharge rate for PB (LiFePO4 self discharge is lower yet) & tolerates overcharge abuse better than gel. which should not be charged over 14.2v-14.3v .. Gel batteries if overcharged can gas causing permanent damage.

AGM can also be damaged by overcharging but it's closer to flooded PB for charging characteristics. Flooded PB are most tolerant to overcharge of all the lead acid batteries.

600 watt charging system should be plenty to support most any electrical needs on your bike. Airheads got by with under 280 watts for decades. upgrades for Airhead charging system is only 450 watts.

Odyssey 925 AGM 26AH, weight 24lb vs Earth-X ETX36 at 3lb 11oz
recommendations is to go with AGM unless saving weight is more important than saving $$$.

[Les_Garten]

Since we're talking charging here...

How about the use of the 14.7 v regulators and the PC680 or PC925 batts. Is that high output regulator too high for the AGM batts?

[_cy_]

Originally Posted by Les_Garten

Since we're talking charging here...

How about the use of the 14.7 v regulators and the PC680 or PC925 batts. Is that high output regulator too high for the AGM batts?

14.7v regulator would be on the high end of what an AGM battery will tolerate. sulfation/batt life would go down, capacity would go up... you are better off under 14.2v for longer life.

for a few months during testing for Shorai LFX 21 .. determined actual AH capacity was too low for R80G/S when combined with cold weather/heated gear/short trips. a higher output voltage regulator 14.4v-14.5v was tried ... conclusion was one still needed a larger AH capacity battery. but overcharging risks increased during extended rides. switched back to OEM voltage regulator. technically LiFePO4 reaches full charge at 14.6v, so 14.5v would still be under threshold. too close to LiFePO4 limits for extended rides...

this document is worth reading ... contains information specific to AGM 12v batteries. PB chemistries are well established technologies with a voluminous amount of information out there. key is knowing which set of technical information to drill in on.