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Old 02-10-2013, 08:36 PM   #6931
Ken in Regina
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Albie View Post
The whole shaping point thing was created because of ZUMO owners. They didn't want all the Via points cluttering up the map display, You can imagine how bad it looked having 300-400 via point flags being displayed in a couple hundred mile route. So Garmin created shaping points as a way to turn them off so they wouldn't display on the ZUMO's, and to make them non announcing. As far as I know, none of the other units outside of the ZUMO hide the shaping points. Of course with only a max of 50 points with the Montana, not like there's a lot of clutter anyway.
Actually, shaping points have always been hidden on Garmin devices. Except Zumos. Or at least in the 10 or so years I've been using Garmin products (iQue 3600, iQue 3600A, Mobile PC, Mobile XT, nRoute, GPS10x, eTrex Legend HCx, Nuvi 765T, Nuvi 255W, Nuvi 40). (My Approach G6 probably doesn't count cuz it's dedicated to the golf course.)

Don't take my word for it. Do this test. Create a two point route (A to B) in Basecamp or Mapsource. Make sure there are a few turns necessary to get from A to B. Export the route to a GPX file and view it in your favorite XML viewer or a text editor like Notepad. You will see a bunch of shaping points in the route. Transfer that route into any (non-Zumo) Garmin nav device that supports loading routes. Activate the route and look at the map. You will only see points A and B disolayed. None of the shaping points you see in the GPX file will be displayed nor will they be announced ... except that the appropriate turns they mark will be announced, of course.

Except on a Zumo.

When Garmin created the Zumo to support the sorts of off-the-beaten-path routing that motorcyclists and some RV travellers like to use, a side-effect of the way they implemented some of the features was that shaping points became visible, in all respects, eg. they showed up on the map display and they were announced just like waypoints or POIs used in the route.

This, of course, was an undesirable side-effect so a workaround had to be devised.

The "shaping point" and "via point" terminology has existed in the Garmin vocabulary for a very long time. But it had to be added to the GPX spec so the Zumo could distinguish them and handle them appropriately. And, of course, the code had to be added to the Zumos.

The side-effect is that the features can now be used in devices like the Montana and future devices aimed at folks like us who like to travel like cats. :)

...ken....
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Old 02-10-2013, 11:14 PM   #6932
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Old 02-11-2013, 04:02 AM   #6933
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some tracks not showing

Hi guys... I have done a good deal of searching on this issue and so far have come up empty.

I have begun having a frustrating issue with my Montana 650. It is not properly displaying the tracks.

I have maybe 12 tracks on the GPS at the moment, and maybe 7 or 8 enabled. I ensured that they are
all shorter than 10,000 points before transferring them to the GPS. At this time, it seems some of the
tracks that I have enabled with "Show on Map" will show properly, but some will not. If I zoom way out,
the missing track will appear but as I zoom back in it will disappear. If I navigate the track by choosing
it in "where to?" the track will appear on the screen and I can follow it. There does not appear to be
any obvious pattern to which tracks will decide to not appear. I even had problems yesterday with the
active track not showing properly. The trail behind me on the GPS was maybe a mile, even though I had
ridden more than 30 miles.

Aside from the 10,000 point per track limit, and the 200 stored track limit, are there any other limits I could
be running up against? Even disabling tracks (i.e., "Hide on Map") has no effect so I would say hitting a
limit seems unlikely.

Has anyone encountered this behavior on the Montana before? Getting ready to lead a group on a
major ride and I need the tracks to display properly and reliably.

I have been having other odd behavior with the GPS since installing the latest firmware so perhaps there
is a connection there?
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Old 02-11-2013, 07:19 AM   #6934
Albie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken in Regina View Post
Actually, shaping points have always been hidden on Garmin devices. Except Zumos. Or at least in the 10 or so years I've been using Garmin products (iQue 3600, iQue 3600A, Mobile PC, Mobile XT, nRoute, GPS10x, eTrex Legend HCx, Nuvi 765T, Nuvi 255W, Nuvi 40). (My Approach G6 probably doesn't count cuz it's dedicated to the golf course.)

Don't take my word for it. Do this test. Create a two point route (A to B) in Basecamp or Mapsource. Make sure there are a few turns necessary to get from A to B. Export the route to a GPX file and view it in your favorite XML viewer or a text editor like Notepad. You will see a bunch of shaping points in the route. Transfer that route into any (non-Zumo) Garmin nav device that supports loading routes. Activate the route and look at the map. You will only see points A and B disolayed. None of the shaping points you see in the GPX file will be displayed nor will they be announced ... except that the appropriate turns they mark will be announced, of course.

Except on a Zumo.

When Garmin created the Zumo to support the sorts of off-the-beaten-path routing that motorcyclists and some RV travellers like to use, a side-effect of the way they implemented some of the features was that shaping points became visible, in all respects, eg. they showed up on the map display and they were announced just like waypoints or POIs used in the route.

This, of course, was an undesirable side-effect so a workaround had to be devised.

The "shaping point" and "via point" terminology has existed in the Garmin vocabulary for a very long time. But it had to be added to the GPX spec so the Zumo could distinguish them and handle them appropriately. And, of course, the code had to be added to the Zumos.

The side-effect is that the features can now be used in devices like the Montana and future devices aimed at folks like us who like to travel like cats. :)

...ken....

I think the biggest confusion is because Garmin CREATED a new type of shaping point. In other words, one that the user manually inserts while creating a route, They should have named it something else, or better yet, just left it what it actually is, a Via point with a preference selected for not being announced.
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Old 02-11-2013, 02:18 PM   #6935
Rocky TFS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken in Regina View Post
Actually, shaping points have always been hidden on Garmin devices

Don't take my word for it. Do this test. Create a two point route (A to B) in Basecamp or Mapsource. Make sure there are a few turns necessary to get from A to B. Export the route to a GPX file and view it in your favorite XML viewer or a text editor like Notepad. You will see a bunch of shaping points in the route. Transfer that route into any (non-Zumo) Garmin nav device that supports loading routes. Activate the route and look at the map. You will only see points A and B disolayed. None of the shaping points you see in the GPX file will be displayed nor will they be announced ... except that the appropriate turns they mark will be announced, of course.
...ken....
OK, I just did the test with BC. Original route was a direct route with one via point. It exported to a .gpx file of about 5 Kbits, which only contained the usual xml stuff and the three points, as expected.

Then I removed the via point in the original route and switched it to Automotive activity in BC. This exported to a .gpx file of about 56 kbits, which contained the usual headers, etc. and about 280 lat/longs, none of which were specifically called shaping points in the xml viewer, just the start and finish were identified as via points. Upon simulating the route with CNNA and automobile routing, only the points where turns were necessary showed in the Nuvi dashboard's header field on the Montana and in the list of turns when that was clicked. (The only way you can see what points are in this route once transferred to the unit because you can't edit a follow-road route, only a direct one, unless you create it in the Montana.)

This is exactly what you indicated!!

So it seems to me that this all boils down to semantics, and both Garmin and us users penchant for not being explicit in our use of the terms. As Albie posted above, if you can see it, greyed or not, in the route properties box in BC, the Montana will treat it as a via point. Period.

Bottom Line: We cannot see shaping points in either BC or the Montana, only by looking at the gpx file with a viewer.

I know that for me, most of this confusion came from my years of experience with non routing GPS's, and thinking that I just HAD to put in a bunch of via points in order to make a route work more or less identically in BC or the Montana. Unfortunately, this is still true to some extent and varies a great deal depending on where your route is and what kind of roads you want it to be on. I've never had the least problem with the Montana and BC using CNNA to route me identically from major city to major city or most any town on secondary highways, but that's not what I bought this GPS for.

Maybe that's why they called it CITY NAVIGATOR!!

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Old 02-11-2013, 03:37 PM   #6936
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky TFS View Post

I know that for me, most of this confusion came from my years of experience with non routing GPS's, and thinking that I just HAD to put in a bunch of via points in order to make a route work more or less identically in BC or the Montana. Unfortunately, this is still true to some extent and varies a great deal depending on where your route is and what kind of roads you want it to be on. I've never had the least problem with the Montana and BC using CNNA to route me identically from major city to major city or most any town on secondary highways, but that's not what I bought this GPS for.

Maybe that's why they called it CITY NAVIGATOR!!
It's been my experience as well. I've yet to see a route calculate differently on my Montana then from what I created in BC. It just frustrates the hell out of my that I have to make multiple routes because of the stupid 50 point limit, or worse, have to redo a route someone else has given me because it contains more then 50 points.
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Old 02-11-2013, 05:24 PM   #6937
Rocky TFS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Albie View Post
or worse, have to redo a route someone else has given me because it contains more than 50 points.
That's why I NEVER accept routes from anyone, only tracks......

In fact, I've gone back to using direct routing or tracks with non-routable topo maps for almost ALL of my dirt riding.

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Old 02-12-2013, 07:02 PM   #6938
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Well, my second Montana is on it's way back to Garmin for an RMA with regards to the endless loop that it gets into when I try to do a screen recalibration... fingers crossed for me.
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Old 02-12-2013, 07:06 PM   #6939
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Well, my second Montana is on it's way back to Garmin for an RMA with regards to the endless loop that it gets into when I try to do a screen recalibration... fingers crossed for me.
How long before this one gave the same results?

Why were you recalibrating the screen?

What was the firmware level?
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Old 02-12-2013, 07:28 PM   #6940
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How long before this one gave the same results?
I guess about 6-8 months I've had this one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by atlas cached View Post
Why were you recalibrating the screen?
I had noticed that the touch point seemed to have "drfted". I would have to press about 1/4" below the point/button I wished to activate.

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Originally Posted by atlas cached View Post
What was the firmware level?
Latest (4.70, I think).
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Old 02-12-2013, 07:58 PM   #6941
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Double Roads Displayed

I have started to notice the past 2 days that when I am driving the the Montana displays 2 roads were the is only 1 or 4 were a divided road is.

I thought I saw this talked about before but have not been able to find it & what the solution was?

I have 4.70 firmware & CNNA2013.30 installed.
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Old 02-12-2013, 08:15 PM   #6942
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When I am currently not navigating, and I click Where To? I cannot select Tracks because it is nowhere on the list. How did I delete that and how do I get it back?

This is while I am on a custom profile I made. On the standard Automobile and Motorcycle profiles the Tracks is still there, but not on my custom one.
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Old 02-12-2013, 09:04 PM   #6943
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by snooker View Post

This is while I am on a custom profile I made. On the standard Automobile and Motorcycle profiles the Tracks is still there, but not on my custom one.
That reminds me of something I have wondered about but keep forgetting to ask. I have also made custom profiles so I would not mess up the default ones.

Do I need to make matching profiles in BaseCamp and use those when creating routes so when I upload the routes to the Montana the upload does not change any of the default profiles on the Montana?

The reason I ask is I seem to remember some talk about making sure we use the same profiles to create routes that we plan to use on the GPS but might be confusing that with something else.

Jon...
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Old 02-12-2013, 10:02 PM   #6944
Rocky TFS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon_PDX View Post
The reason I ask is I seem to remember some talk about making sure we use the same profiles to create routes that we plan to use on the GPS but might be confusing that with something else.

Jon...
There is only a slight confusion here. BaseCamp has Activity Profiles, these allow you to set what Map Display Features you wish to see on whatever map you are using in Basecamp (irrelevant to the Montana), and more importantly, what routing options you want, i.e. faster time, avoidances, etc.

The Montana uses Profiles for much more, like setting which map to use, how you want your dashboard or menus to look like, and dozens of other custom settings.

The key here is to set the activity profile in BC to match the same activity as part of a Profile on the Montana: (setup>routing>activity...calculation...avoidances, i.e. automobile driving, faster time, avoid U-turns.

This, along with identical maps on both, will give you the best chance of having your carefully tweaked route in BC function the same on the Montana without recalculation.

Nothing you do with Activity Profiles on BC will change Profiles, default or otherwise, on the Montana, except that you may have introduced the possibility of a mismatch in Routing Activity. This is only true for autorouting, if you are using direct routing and topo maps on the Montana none of this applies.

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Old 02-13-2013, 12:30 AM   #6945
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Originally Posted by bighopper View Post
I have started to notice the past 2 days that when I am driving the the Montana displays 2 roads were the is only 1 or 4 were a divided road is.

I thought I saw this talked about before but have not been able to find it & what the solution was?

I have 4.70 firmware & CNNA2013.30 installed.
I used to see this also, turned out I had a basemap enabled and did not realize it. If you see more than one set of roads, you have another map installed and enabled.
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