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Old 01-30-2013, 01:18 PM   #136
def
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
Shortly after purchasing my R1150 last year I realized that it felt "held back" by its leanness. It reminded me of how the aircraft I'd flown for more than a decade felt when its mixture control was set too lean—a piston engine aircraft requires that the pilot constantly be aware of mixture. The big difference was that the R1150 had no provisions for mixture management. Worse yet, it had an O2 sensor that would "enforce" its will and undo most attempts to add more fuel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=...ture=endscreen

Roger, is that you on the flight deck at the engine panel? Note at 1:50 someone is wigglin' the controls.
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Old 01-30-2013, 02:00 PM   #137
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=...ture=endscreen

Roger, is that you on the flight deck at the engine panel? Note at 1:50 someone is wigglin' the controls.
I think Roger was experimenting with Lambda around 0.50...on the bright side there will be no mosquitoes in that neighborhood for a long time.
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Old 01-30-2013, 07:21 PM   #138
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Those engines are a sight. Wow!

Full rich for take off and landing and initial climb—maybe 11 or 12:1. Then up to cruise, level flight and lean the engines to peak EGT, which is about where our bikes run most all the time. After peak EGT then either add fuel to drop the EGT 50 degrees for best power, or reduce fuel and EGT by about 50 degrees for best economy. Interestingly the only place the engine is not run is PEAK EGT! It's too hot and bad for the engine, yet it is where our bikes are set up because it is the point of lowest emissions when used with a cat.
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Old 01-31-2013, 12:28 PM   #139
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I had been using Bosch 4417's, but put in Autolite 3923's before going for a nice ride yesterday afternoon. I also put some Techron in the tank. Instead of focusing on how the engine was running I just decided to ride -- took some nice secondary roads, a few curves, a fair amount of hills, and 20 miles of freeway.

Boy what a difference compared to the "old" bike! There is a goodly increase in torque, particularly noticeable in the 3000-4000 rpm range where I often ride. I found myself giving it lots of throttle whenever there was the slightest opportunity, and had to be careful in 1st and 2nd gear not to let the front wheel come off the ground! I never had that "problem" before the LC-1. The "surge" seemed a little less than the day before, but I could still feel it. The wideband O2 modification is definitely a keeper. I'm running at lambda =.94 (13.8 AFR), and plan to just leave it there for a while.

A little reflection on my experience and exchanges with Roger leads me to wonder just what constitutes a surge? We talk about "surging" as though everyone knows what we mean, but I suspect it means somewhat different things to different people. Do conditions matter, for example, is it detectable in normal riding vs. optimal conditions for surging? Is there a way to quantify the surge -- how strongly it is felt, at what rpms, in what gears, etc.? Yesterday I could detect what to me was a slight surge, but I suspect others may not notice it or think of it surging. Since we use surging as one criterion of how our bikes are running it might be good to be more specific about what we mean.
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Old 02-11-2013, 07:19 AM   #140
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Are there any opinions on how altering fuel/air ratio might affect engine and component warranty?
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Old 02-11-2013, 01:45 PM   #141
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Are there any opinions on how altering fuel/air ratio might affect engine and component warranty?
BMW could claim, on an in warranty bike that your modification has affected the engine, exhaust, catalytic converter, drivetrain (by adding more power loading), etc., etc., etc. The same could be said for IAT modifiers, Techlustions, and PowerCommanders.

The reality is you're only adding the amount of fuel needed to make your bike run better. In my case with a 9 year-old R1150RT I don't have any concerns at all.
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Old 02-13-2013, 02:41 PM   #142
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Update on the LC-1 on my 2001 R1150 GS:

The fuel injectors I had sent off for cleaning (RC Engineering) came back today. The report showed they had flow rates of 315 and 294 cc/min before cleaning; and 321 and 319 cc/min respectively after cleaning. The 21 cc/min difference between cylinders before cleaning seems like a lot, which I believe could account for the slight surge I still had after installing the RC-1.

So I installed the cleaned injectors and went for a ride, syncing the TBs after the engine was fully warmed up. The surging is now gone! I had forgotten just how smooth and torquey the GS is with the richer fueling. The LC-1 transformed the bike. I rode like a hooligan coming home – big smile on my face, 30 degree weather notwithstanding.

Thanks Roger for your help every step of the way. For me, this is a modification well worth doing.
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Old 02-14-2013, 04:46 AM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wallyging
Here's an update on the LC-1 on my 2001 R1150 GS:

The fuel injectors I had sent off for cleaning (RC Engineering) came back today. The report showed they had flow rates of 315 and 294 cc/min before cleaning; and 321 and 319 cc/min respectively after cleaning. The 21 cc/min difference between cylinders before cleaning seems like a lot, which I believe could account for the slight surge I still had after installing the RC-1.

So I installed the cleaned injectors and went for a ride, syncing the TBs after the engine was fully warmed up. The surging is now gone! I had forgotten just how smooth and torquey the GS is with the richer fueling. The LC-1 transformed the bike. I rode like a hooligan coming home – big smile on my face, 30 degree weather notwithstanding.

Thanks Roger for your help every step of the way. For me, this is a modification well worth doing.
That is a fairly large injector mismatch for a lean-fueled engine as yours was with the stock O2 sensor installed. When using the stock sensor I see AFRs move between 14.3:1 and 15.1. Since your cylinders had a 7% fueling imbalance so taking half that amount and adding another 3.5% to the 15.1:1 your leanest cylinder was at times in the vicinity of 15.6:1, a very lean mixture.

Also, around stoic, the fuel is converted to power at about half the difference of 7%, so one cylinder was producing 3-4% more or less power than the other. Your engine should be somewhat smoother now.

As you richened the mixture with your LC-1 but before you cleaned the injectors, you adding fuel and consuming the excess oxygen. As you do that your bike became less sensitive to the injector imbalance because once you've consumed all the oxygen the excess fuel can't be burned and the power differences diminish.

Glad it is working out for you.
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Old 02-17-2013, 12:20 PM   #144
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Wow!!

Hi guys,
A couple months ago I installed an LC-1 on my '04 R1150RT and finally got some good weather a couple days ago and went for a ride. Most of this info I have posted on the bmwsporttouring sight but for those of you that don't go there I will make a blanket statement: Even if you think your oilhead runs great or good enough install the LC-1 anyway, it's that simple. The difference in lower RPM torque and much smoother running is phenomenal. My '04 has about 42K miles on the odometer and most of those miles were put on ridding in 5th gear. Now, thanks to the LC-1 and all the data posted by Roger, 6th gear is completely usable.

I admit that in the beginning of these LC-1 threads I was a bit skeptical and had thoughts about snake oil bouncing around between my ears but seeing and feeling is believing. That's about the long and short of it.

Thanks Roger.
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Old 03-06-2013, 04:52 AM   #145
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Since the LC-1 approach to richening the engine fuel to air mixture does so many good things but is a bit of work to install, I wanted to see if there was an easy way to use the stock Narrowband sensor and "pull" it a little richer than it is designed to run normally. It turns out that after some measurements, and tests, it is possible to do just that--get up to 6% richer fueling using the stock O2 sensor. Here's the story ...

A couple of months ago I installed a second bung in the exhaust of my R1150RT. I wanted to have both a Wideband O2 and a Narrowband O2 installed and running at the same time. The idea was to let the Motronic use the Narrowband in the usual way while I recorded the results of Motronic/Narrowband by monitoring the Wideband. In other words using the Wideband to spy on the Narrowband. Second Bung Install.

The Wideband showed that the Narrowband/Motronic pair kept the Closed Loop fuel right at lambda=1 (AFR 14.7:1).

Then I wanted to see if there was some kind of circuit that could be inserted in series with the Narrowband to richen the mixture without having to add an LC-1. The Narrowband sensor is well designed and has a big change of voltage right at Lambda=1. Just a bit leaner and its output drops to 100mV. Just a bit richer and its output jumps to 800mV.

The exact rich output voltage increases from about 700mV at 14.6:1 to about 900mV at 13.8:1. That is a small voltage change for a large mixture change, which means it is too small a change for the Motronic to work with.

Compounding matters, in the rich zone, from 700 to 900mV, the voltage changes as the exhaust gets hotter from higher engine load. Another way to say the same thing is that the voltage that corresponds, for example, to 14.1:1 (slightly rich) changes with engine loading. Compounding the problem further, the Motronic has a clever circuit that figures out if the voltages have been shifted. It uses that circuit to ignore simple shifts of the O2 signal.

I also built a test harness which allowed me to add circuits in series with the the stock O2. I tried a dozen different ideas, including some patented circuits from nightrider.com that work on Harley Davidsons. Nothing worked.

Over the last year, I've gotten to know the owner of nightrider, Steve Mullen. One of his Harley O2 richening products has a microprocessor inside. As designed for the Harleys, it didn't work either. But a couple weeks ago, we discussed and agreed on a different algorithm. Steve coded it up and sent me a new "chip" just for BMWs.

To make a long story short, the new "chip", with some other circuit changes, will pull the Narrowband sensor several percent into the rich zone. The way it works is that the microprocessor module measures the stock O2 sensor voltage, filters it to reduce noise, and then alters the voltage transfer function so that the signal it sends to the Motronic looks like a normal Narrowband sensor that is switching at a richer lambda (range is 0-6% richer).

As it is designed (proto with many extra wires, below) you unplug the stock O2 and plug this device between the two stock connectors. There is a ground wire to connect also. There is already power in the O2 sensor cable so no power connection or new fuse is required. The final product will be about 1/2" x 1" x 3" with two OEM connectors, plus one ground wire.

I have test ridden this circuit at 13.8, 14.1, 14.3 and 14.45 and will post some charts and other data tomorrow.

For those interested, PM me. We will build a couple of modules for pre-production trials for R1150XX with Motronic MA 2.4. Assuming everything works it will then go into production.

RB

Note: If the connectors are made compatible, this would work on any R1100, R1150, R1200 (2 needed).

Prototype test cable harness and small O2 processor device. Final product would be just the processor, two thin cables with OEM connectors and a ground wire—a simple plug 'n play solution.

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Old 03-06-2013, 07:57 AM   #146
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Old 03-06-2013, 07:45 PM   #147
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Below is a plot of the O2 Circuit with Narrowband at the bottom of the chart, and an LC-1 at the top. The LC-1 is set to 13.8 (the red dotted line) but it would have the same look at any programmed AFR. The thing that jumps out is how solidly the Motronic locks the LC-1 onto the target AFR.

In the bottom chart the O2 Circuit & Narrowband was set to 13.8:1. The result was 14.0:1 at hot idle (the red line) and 13.6 (the blue line) at 80MPH cruise. Different loads resulted in different Closed Loop AFRs. Interestingly higher loads lead to richer mixtures which isn't terrible—some might even say it's a good feature. (Hotter exhaust makes the O2 sensor produce a given voltage at a richer mixture.)

This means the spread was ±0.2 AFR between idle and 80 mph and that was with the narrowband pulled a long way off its design point. There are some additional data sets below the charts. (Note that the first few minutes is very rich. That's the Open Loop Cold-Start Fueling.)



After two more test rides, I have a good data base at three settings. Setting 5, 7 and 8 are actual and setting 6 is estimated but I will ride it later. The data look pretty good. The curves for the various settings all look like the one above. Here are the different results:

S8: 13.8 ±0.2 AFR
S7: 14.1 ±0.2
S6: 14.3 ±0.15 (estimated)
S5: 14.45 ±0.125

It is my opinion that most bikes will run great at setting 6 or 7. An important point here is that when you richen closed loop AFR, the open loop fueling gets richer too, coming along for the ride through a process known as Adaptation.

As I said earlier, because of the heating, the mixtures get a little richer with higher loads. Looking at those numbers above, the lean end of the range occurs at idle and the rich end of the range happens at 80 mph.

There are still a few small adjustments to make to voltage levels and to the algorithm. Then a few pre-production units.

RB
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Old 03-06-2013, 09:11 PM   #148
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Very interesting! If I'm understanding what you've posted, it appears the LC-1 is a bit more consistent than the new prototype, but most likely it isn't enough to make a noticeable difference. Did I get that right?

I was strongly considering an LC-1, but I may hold off a bit now...
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Old 03-06-2013, 09:20 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
Below is a plot of the O2 Circuit with Narrowband at the bottom of the chart, and an LC-1 at the top. The LC-1 is set to 13.8 (the red dotted line) but it would have the same look at any programmed AFR. The thing that jumps out is how solidly the Motronic locks the LC-1 onto the target AFR.

In the bottom chart the O2 Circuit & Narrowband was set to 13.8:1. The result was 14.0:1 at hot idle (the red line) and 13.6 (the blue line) at 80MPH cruise. Different loads resulted in different Closed Loop AFRs. Interestingly higher loads lead to richer mixtures which isn't terrible—some might even say it's a good feature. (Hotter exhaust makes the O2 sensor produce a given voltage at a richer mixture.)

This means the spread was ±0.2 AFR between idle and 80 mph and that was with the narrowband pulled a long way off its design point. There are some additional data sets below the charts. (Note that the first few minutes is very rich. That's the Open Loop Cold-Start Fueling.)



After two more test rides, I have a good data base at three settings. Setting 5, 7 and 8 are actual and setting 6 is estimated but I will ride it later. The data look pretty good. The curves for the various settings all look like the one above. Here are the different results:

S8: 13.8 ±0.2 AFR
S7: 14.1 ±0.2
S6: 14.3 ±0.15 (estimated)
S5: 14.45 ±0.125

It is my opinion that most bikes will run great at setting 6 or 7. An important point here is that when you richen closed loop AFR, the open loop fueling gets richer too, coming along for the ride through a process known as Adaptation.

As I said earlier, because of the heating, the mixtures get a little richer with higher loads. Looking at those numbers above, the lean end of the range occurs at idle and the rich end of the range happens at 80 mph.

There are still a few small adjustments to make to voltage levels and to the algorithm. Then a few pre-production units.

RB
So, this means keep the same Lambda sensor and just ad a bit of wire, connectors, a cheap processor and some new code? No LC1 or other stuff? Now you're on to something.

But, what about those of us who spend a lot of time at 90 MPH in summer heat?
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Old 03-07-2013, 04:11 AM   #150
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Very interesting! If I'm understanding what you've posted, it appears the LC-1 is a bit more consistent than the new prototype, but most likely it isn't enough to make a noticeable difference. Did I get that right?

I was strongly considering an LC-1, but I may hold off a bit now...
You've got it.

I will likely leave the LC-1 on my own motorcycle. (Since I have two bungs to install O2 sensors I'll probably leave them both connected.) But if things keep progressing as they are the O2 circuit I've described will be a very good choice.

Reasons to use an LC-1 (and there are other products that so the same thing):
—precise control of lambda from 0.9 to 1.1 (gasoline AFR 13.2 to 16.2)
—can be set to stock fueling (gasoline AFR 14.7)
—sensor calibration cycle insures long term accuracy
—powerful diagnostic plotting of AFR. You can "see" the results of combustion.
—proven, reasonably priced, reliable product from a well-known supplier
—available today

Reasons to use an "new O2 circuit":
—simple installation (remove fuel tank, plug in device, connect ground wire, reassemble)
—uses existing O2 sensor (no need to remove muffler to install)
—approximate control of lambda from 0.96 to 1.0 (gasoline AFR 13.8 to 14.7)
—can be set to stock fueling

With either solution you should use the highest setting that gives good performance (meaning don't add more fuel than needed). My estimate is that will be about lambda at 0.94 (gasoline AFR 14.1:1)

Some of the benefits of richer mixtures:
—smoother, steadier cruise
—better low-RPM roll-on power
—often can run one higher gear (e.g. 6th instead of 5th)
—cooler exhaust temperature (stock setting at gasoline AFR of 14.7:1 is hottest setting, called peak EGT by pilots)

Other things you should consider in addition to regular maintenance:
—make sure your fuel pump, filter and in-tank hoses are in perfect condition
—run a tank using the recommended dose of Techron concentrate every 6 months
—send your injectors for professional cleaning and testing. If your injectors don't have their best spray pattern and aren't well-balanced your engine won't run its best.
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