Countersteering confusion : (

[Andyvh1959]

Wow, 22 pages of discussion on countersteering!!??

I have been teaching the MSF courses for over 20 years, and to a point I don't try to explain how countersteering works, because a large percentage of people including riders of many years either have no real idea, or cannot grasp the concept, or some claim its a bunch of BS (which it is NOT), or are so LOCKED in their brains to only think go left-STEER left, or right, that they have no chance to ever understand it.

I can explain it, how it works, why it works. But it is far easier to coach people on how to do it and let them feel it for themselves. Once the "feel" of countersteering is developed, all the discussion and theoretical dicsussion is irrelevant for most riders.

Years ago my orthopedic surgeon was a student in my MSF BRC, along with this son and daughter. Now, the man is a doctor, obviously intelligent, but yet he would NOT allow his brain to consider accepting push left-go left/push right-go right when it came to applying countersteering for lean initiation and motorcycle control. He couldn't do it even after I told him not to think about it, just do it and feel/learn the response of the bike. He failed the swerve portion of the training and evaluation and I failed him in the class. I later worked with him one to one and finally got him to feel and accept it did work. His son and daughter easily grasped the concept and passed the class easily. He later did get his license and has been riding for over eight years now.

So, less theory, less discussion. Just DO it and learn from it. It works whenever you need to initiate a lean or change a lean angle (like mid-turn). I have found it still works for dirt riding, and even applies for ice racing.

[pretbek]

Originally Posted by Andyvh1959

I have found it still works for dirt riding, and even applies for ice racing.

Yeah, but only over 22 mph.

[Al Goodwin]

GEEZ LOUISE......just go for a RIDE PEOPLE.....

It's NOT rocket science.

Go riding, think about while you're doing it. That'll answer ALL the questions and confusion.

[DAKEZ]

Originally Posted by Al Goodwin

GEEZ LOUISE......just go for a RIDE PEOPLE.....

It's NOT rocket science.

Go riding, think about while you're doing it. That'll answer ALL the questions and confusion.

... Well, there you have it. Just ingore that the NUMER ONE single vehicle acctident is blowing a corner because you don't know what to do and your heart starts racing when you THINK you are going too fast to get around the bend.

When you crash... When you get injured or killed it was all because motorcycle riding just wasn't for you.

It had NOTHING to do with the fact that you ignored the Push Left Go Left/Push Righ Go Right/ Look through the turn, LOOK THROUGH THE TURN, LOOK THROUGH THE TURN!

You trusted in cousin Jimmy's method of "All that counter steering stuff is just a bunch of HOGWASH! Just Lean into the turn"

Then you target fixated on the guard-rail or ditch or rock or truck.... Your aim was true.

Ride Safe Ride Well Ride Often

See you on the side of the road.

[farmerstu]

[QUOTE=Andyvh1959;20678554]Wow, 22 pages of discussion on countersteering!!??

I can explain it, how it works, why it works. But it is far easier to coach people on how to do it and let them feel it for themselves. Once the "feel" of countersteering is developed, all the discussion and theoretical dicsussion is irrelevant for most riders.

I know it isn't practical for the msf class and i know not everyone is tall enough to reach the controls with an adult sitting in front. but my system of sitting on pillion and steering by pushing and pulling on the trainees elbows while doing some aggressive swerving works every time.
Dakez you are tall enough, have you ever teaching someone like this?

[DAKEZ]

[QUOTE=farmerstu;20685485]

Originally Posted by Andyvh1959

Wow, 22 pages of discussion on countersteering!!??

I know it isn't practical for the msf class and i know not everyone is tall enough to reach the controls with an adult sitting in front. but my system of sitting on pillion and steering by pushing and pulling on the trainees elbows while doing some aggressive swerving works every time.
Dakez you are tall enough, have you ever teaching someone like this?

I haven't done it that way (on bike) in the past but I will give it a go this year with the Gals I teach to ride.

[Al Goodwin]

......OH brother!!!!!

I didn't say go out and ride like a bloomin IDIOT.

Go find an empty backroad, take it slow and easy, swerve back and forth, notice what your steering is doing while you're swerving. Go into and out of some corners aggressively. change lines while IN a corner, turn tighter, come out early...PAY attention to what's going on.

THere....GO FOR A RIDE, everyone should be able to notice what's going on and WHY!!!!

Originally Posted by DAKEZ

... Well, there you have it. Just ingore that the NUMER ONE single vehicle acctident is blowing a corner because you don't know what to do and your heart starts racing when you THINK you are going too fast to get around the bend.

When you crash... When you get injured or killed it was all because motorcycle riding just wasn't for you.

It had NOTHING to do with the fact that you ignored the Push Left Go Left/Push Righ Go Right/ Look through the turn, LOOK THROUGH THE TURN, LOOK THROUGH THE TURN!

You trusted in cousin Jimmy's method of "All that counter steering stuff is just a bunch of HOGWASH! Just Lean into the turn"

Then you target fixated on the guard-rail or ditch or rock or truck.... Your aim was true.

Ride Safe Ride Well Ride Often

See you on the side of the road.

[DAKEZ]

My post wasn't aimed directly at you. Your post was just a spring board.

The "just go ride" way must not be the answer either as not all people are figuring it out.

[IrishJohn]

Originally Posted by Andyvh1959

Wow, 22 pages of discussion on countersteering!!??

I have been teaching the MSF courses for over 20 years, and to a point I don't try to explain how countersteering works, because a large percentage of people including riders of many years either have no real idea, or cannot grasp the concept, or some claim its a bunch of BS (which it is NOT), or are so LOCKED in their brains to only think go left-STEER left, or right, that they have no chance to ever understand it.

I can explain it, how it works, why it works. But it is far easier to coach people on how to do it and let them feel it for themselves. Once the "feel" of countersteering is developed, all the discussion and theoretical dicsussion is irrelevant for most riders.

Years ago my orthopedic surgeon was a student in my MSF BRC, along with this son and daughter. Now, the man is a doctor, obviously intelligent, but yet he would NOT allow his brain to consider accepting push left-go left/push right-go right when it came to applying countersteering for lean initiation and motorcycle control. He couldn't do it even after I told him not to think about it, just do it and feel/learn the response of the bike. He failed the swerve portion of the training and evaluation and I failed him in the class. I later worked with him one to one and finally got him to feel and accept it did work. His son and daughter easily grasped the concept and passed the class easily. He later did get his license and has been riding for over eight years now.

So, less theory, less discussion. Just DO it and learn from it. It works whenever you need to initiate a lean or change a lean angle (like mid-turn). I have found it still works for dirt riding, and even applies for ice racing.

Thank you for this, and thanks to all for commenting. My apologies for not responding earlier - was out of the country for five weeks with little internet access. I finally 'cracked' the countersteering concept - it might sound stupid but while walking I suddenly realised how 'body lean' does not EFFECT direction but is an AFFECT of it - might sound stupid but it opened the door for me. Also - I think a lot of my confusion started with not understanding you only countersteer to INITIATE the turn - the Instructor made it sound like something out of a dirt bike race thing with the rear wheel almost at ninety degrees to the front wheel....Thanks again for all the contributions, it really has helped me relax on my bike. I was able to really relax on my ride today for the first time

[Salzig]

Changing direction during a wheelie, does it involve countersteering?

[shaddix]

Of course!

[vortexau]

Originally Posted by Salzig

Changing direction during a wheelie, does it involve countersteering?

Then you employ Gyroscopic Precession by feeding force into the front wheel to pivot the "monoed" motorcycle, about its inclined vertical axis.

YouTube- Gyroscope precession

This works easier when the front wheel is still spinning.

Diagram (1000 x 750 pixels)

[vortexau]

The whole subject (Countersteering) becomes easier to understand when its understood that the front wheel must be "Out-tracked" (moved to an outward track) to initiate the turn. At that point a mild negative Countersteer input maintains the distance between the arc (track) of the rear wheel and the arc (track) of the outside front wheel.




If one examines the path taken by car wheels in a turn, then one sees the same outward-track of the front wheels as compared to the track taken by the rear wheels.

Forklift Trucks do it differently.

So, possibly the best instruction to give to a learning rider is that they must displace the front end outward, and thereby place their body-mass inboard to commence a turn.




When snow skiers want to perform a swift direction change - they often jump (from snow contact) and drop their ski-shod feet well outboard for the turn. Out-tracking at its best!

[the Pheasant]

Since my last post on this thread I have been playing around at countersteering - plenty of opportunity; I'm currently working as a moto courier - and found I was doing the following:

I regularly use a long left-hand slip road, completing 270deg or so, that leads on to a dual carriageway. It's a safe(er) chance to practice left-hand bends, which in the UK are potentially risky compared to right-handers since the tendency, if drifting wide, is to run into oncoming traffic. Also, we get plenty of practice at right-handers on roundabouts.

This slip road's curve tightens slightly as it reaches the dual carriageway. Anyway, I found that, at maximum lean, I was trying to 'steer' the bike around the last, tighter part of the curve by turning the bars to the left, despite being aware of countersteering and using it consciously to initiate turns. The result was a drift towards the gravelly stuff on the outside.

Seems to me that, while it is easy enough to get the hand of countersteering to start a turn - since it is what we do anyway, consciously or not - it may take a lot more mental effort right on the limit. This was my experience on this bend, for sure. I didn't find myself doing the same on similar right-handers, maybe because, until recently, I was getting less practice at bigger lean angles while turning left.

[Lion BR]

Originally Posted by the Pheasant

Since my last post on this thread I have been playing around at countersteering - plenty of opportunity; I'm currently working as a moto courier - and found I was doing the following:

I regularly use a long left-hand slip road, completing 270deg or so, that leads on to a dual carriageway. It's a safe(er) chance to practice left-hand bends, which in the UK are potentially risky compared to right-handers since the tendency, if drifting wide, is to run into oncoming traffic. Also, we get plenty of practice at right-handers on roundabouts.

This slip road's curve tightens slightly as it reaches the dual carriageway. Anyway, I found that, at maximum lean, I was trying to 'steer' the bike around the last, tighter part of the curve by turning the bars to the left, despite being aware of countersteering and using it consciously to initiate turns. The result was a drift towards the gravelly stuff on the outside.

Seems to me that, while it is easy enough to get the hand of countersteering to start a turn - since it is what we do anyway, consciously or not - it may take a lot more mental effort right on the limit. This was my experience on this bend, for sure. I didn't find myself doing the same on similar right-handers, maybe because, until recently, I was getting less practice at bigger lean angles while turning left.

And that is why it is important to have this conversation. That is why counter-steering threads keep coming up. It is not an intuitive process at first, but it is an important concept. I guarantee you, with increasing consciousness about what it does and how it works, and then practicing every time you go for a ride, it will become second nature. And that's where you want to be when riding. As a result it will increase your ability to ride on curves, it will increase your safety margins (or your speed), and it will be a lot more fun to ride on twisty roads.