What kind of battery for adventuring, is Lithium up to the challenge?

[Bli55]

JoelWisman, that's very interesting!! So have you been able to measure cell balance in the earthX, does it still have an external port even though BMS's are inside?

Originally Posted by JoelWisman

...

Other then time, any other tests anyone can think of to differentiate these very different batteries? All of them are blowing the doors off of Shorai but I'm having difficulty figuring out how to simulate durability beyond the acid test of seeing what failure rates are in a few years.

May I suggest testing "toughness" against deep discharge, to see which recovers best (if at all) at standart motorcycle charging conditions....
I can see this being useful if one drains his battery accidentally (parking light, heated grips, chargers etc...) or through necessity (long cranking), so we know what to expect when the bike is finally jump/push-started with a dead LiFePO4.

[JRWooden]

There's a lot of literature out there on accelerated life-cycle testing of advanced chemistry batteries for car ... This is one of the older papers,
but still interesting:

http://avt.inel.gov/battery/pdf/tech...l_feb_2005.pdf

and a newer one:

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehicles...ham_2012_o.pdf

Thermal cycling, operating at reduced SOC, discharge cycling, and discharge/recharge pulsing seem to be the panel there... given our stators I think we can safely ignore any recharge pulse testing

[_cy_]

Originally Posted by JoelWisman

Alright, Just finishing some load tests on all sizes of Antigravity from 4 cell through 20 as well as the ETX18 and 24 earthX. Also been playing with a lab freezer so I can freeze batteries down to whatever specific temperature desired and as always a lead/acid battery thrown into the mix for perspective.

Other then time, any other tests anyone can think of to differentiate these very different batteries? All of them are blowing the doors off of Shorai but I'm having difficulty figuring out how to simulate durability beyond the acid test of seeing what failure rates are in a few years.

FYI until I can get videos and graphs up know that two things are obvious. earthX can really put out a lot of current for it's AH above and beyond any other battery I have tested to date and also it self heats and ramps up current output quicker then any other LiFePO4 battery I have tested to date.

_cy_ I have tested the balance and AH capacity of every battery I have tested to date down to the individual cell and both at low rates and high rates to get at the pekurret, or however you spell that word and found that despite a great body of writing on the web to the contrary, LiFePO4 exhibits a considerable pekurette, meaning the AH out is heavily dependent on the rate of discharge.

So, thoughts anyone? What can we do to get at which of these battery qualities are best before finding out the hard way???

good to have you verify Earth-X cranking performance. IHMO unless someone else pops up with a stronger battery design. Earth-X incorporates the best of available components into a very strong LiFePO4 battery.

Earth-X and others takes advantage of cylindrical cell's inherent rigidity to make connection straps that can deliver punishing currents. but cylindrical cells liability shows when larger amp hour batteries are created.

the larger number of cells, the greater chance of cell(s) going out of balance and/or fail. this is assuming mfg has done their due diligence by matching up like cells. SOC or state of charge difference between cells can happen simply by aging.

Earth-X uses cylindrical cells for smaller AH batteries. but switches to prismatic cells for larger AH batteries. advantage for larger AH in 4s configuration, only four cells are used. 4s: 4x 14AH prismatic cells vs 24x 26650 A123 cells (4s: 6x 2.3AH = 13.8AH)

disadvantage of prismatic cells are less rigid construction making internal connection straps more difficult to achieve. Earth-X has really done their homework by using beefy internal straps on prismatic cells that delivers high current loads.

All Earth-X batteries are built with an internal BMS that balances cells and prevents overcharge. so most any automotive charger will work.

in the process of doing cell balance tests with chargers with balance ports and with charger using pulse technologies. more to come on that topic...

[JoelWisman]

Originally Posted by ScienceOfDirt

Just curious if you have tried DeoxIT from Caig? It's what I'm using currently for my electrical gremlins. I've seen RID-OX, but never picked any up because what I was using worked. I guess I'll have to get a can to try now.

I haven't but may have to since it appears my favorite product is discontinued. Thanks for the tip!

[JoelWisman]

Originally Posted by Bli55

JoelWisman, that's very interesting!! So have you been able to measure cell balance in the earthX, does it still have an external port even though BMS's are inside?



May I suggest testing "toughness" against deep discharge, to see which recovers best (if at all) at standart motorcycle charging conditions....
I can see this being useful if one drains his battery accidentally (parking light, heated grips, chargers etc...) or through necessity (long cranking), so we know what to expect when the bike is finally jump/push-started with a dead LiFePO4.

Neither earthX nor Antigravity have external balance ports, and even if they did at least in Antigravity's case it wouldn't show cell balance for all 16 cells in one of their 16 cell batteries. What I have done is dremeled the top off of all the earthX and Antigravity batteries I have for testing and measure cell balance through individual cell voltage and cell AH capacity through both low and high rate drawdowns.

Actually opening up all these cases also gives me a chance to look at the quality of intercell connections and in the case of the earthX look at the balance circuit.

The idea of running the battery all the way down and then see how recovery goes in a motorcycle is a good idea but should be one of the last tests as it will beyond a doubt damage the battery at least some.

It is particularly applicable to modern BMW owners as the buggy basic module firmware on those bikes has a habit of hanging on without cleanly exiting and running batteries dead overnight. It only happens once in a blue moon but does happen and that blue moon may occur when ur doing a RTW.


Balance of the cells will be a big factor as if there are some cells substantially higher they will reverse the lower cells and completely destroy them instantly.

Beyond that a slow recovery is far preferable but this isn't an easy proposition out in the field though as a matter of policy if someone does this in the field with a LiFePO4 battery id recommend switching on all accessories as soon as the bike starts to make the initial charge as slow as possible.

A BMS that disconnects the battery below a certain threshold while allowing you to hit a reset button to reconnect and start would be elegant but like with even just a balancer, adds more circuitry that can fail unless very robustly designed and quality manufactured.

Ill test the batteries at the threshold where even an idiot would know his battery is running dead and then later take it all the way down at a low rate to simulate German engineers that have more fun playing with firmware then debugging it

[JoelWisman]

Originally Posted by _cy_

good to have you verify Earth-X cranking performance. IHMO unless someone else pops up with a stronger battery design. Earth-X incorporates the best of available components into a very strong LiFePO4 battery. .

_cy_ This is WAY ahead of actual knowledge. earthX is using nice thick intercel connectors that are 2x what Shorai is using, but they are no stronger then Antigravity. Their case does not appear to be as tough or water proof as Antigravity but I believe I have an early production unit so will reserve judgement. There or so many variables that go into a battery you can trust your life to beyond good warm weather current output and the presence of something that is stated to be a balancing circuit that does not break after a few weeks of testing..

Originally Posted by _cy_

Earth-X and others takes advantage of cylindrical cell's inherent rigidity to make connection straps that can deliver punishing currents. but cylindrical cells liability shows when larger amp hour batteries are created.

the larger number of cells, the greater chance of cell(s) going out of balance and/or fail. this is assuming mfg has done their due diligence by matching up like cells. SOC or state of charge difference between cells can happen simply by aging.

This is indeed modern theory which changes regularly but does not necessarily have bearing beyond a piece of paper that it is written on.
1: I have two 16 cell Antigravity A123 26650 batteries that I buzzed the tops off of for testing individual cell balance via micro volts and low and high rate capacity testing as well as an Antigravity 4 cell and 20 cell. Even on the test units that have cells that are bulging since testing super high current draw, every cell is still balanced better then 1%. These are batteries that have not only been tested in ways that proved destructive to both Shorai and Ballistic but have spent every day since testing in actual modern adventure bikes being used daily. All of these 56 cells have been once again tested for balance in the last two weeks cell by cell and ALL ARE STILL in balance. One 16 cell has been in testing and use for just over a year now and the other 3 batteries have been in testing and use for greater then 7 months.

In what way is a battery with a balance circuit better then one that through imperial data does not need a balance circuit?

Originally Posted by _cy_

Earth-X uses cylindrical cells for smaller AH batteries. but switches to prismatic cells for larger AH batteries. advantage for larger AH in 4s configuration, only four cells are used. 4s: 4x 14AH prismatic cells vs 24x 26650 A123 cells (4s: 6x 2.3AH = 13.8AH)

In what way is a battery that has a balance circuit better then a battery that does not have one because it does not need one? If you don't need a balance circuit then all the presence of a balance circuit does is create more things that can go wrong compromising the battery on its own?

I have never seen a prismatic cell that didn't need a balance circuit because the nature of the cell being unconfined and vulnerable to being squished and giggled as well as the tendency I have observed for manufacturing tolerance to be larger with large prismatic cells versus the amazingly tight tolerances A123 26650 cells are manufactured to. So... On larger prismatic cells a properly designed and quality manufactured balance circuit is a plus, but it is NOT a plus over a cylindrical circuit that does not need balancing on it's own.

Originally Posted by _cy_

disadvantage of prismatic cells are less rigid construction making internal connection straps more difficult to achieve. Earth-X has really done their homework by using beefy internal straps on prismatic cells that delivers high current loads.

All Earth-X batteries are built with an internal BMS that balances cells and prevents overcharge. so most any automotive charger will work.

in the process of doing cell balance tests with chargers with balance ports and with charger using pulse technologies. more to come on that topic...

Where are you seeing over-voltage protection on the earthX battery? I may have missed a few electronics engineering classes due to being hung over but am still reasonably certain that I would notice something on a circuit card that could dissipate hundreds of watts or disconnect the battery during an over-voltage event. It isn't there! earthX has no over-voltage protection that I can find.


NOW...... I am absolutely NOT giving earthX a thumbs down, nor a thumbs up. It will take at least a few more months more before I start forming a significant opinion of any kind. The inclusion of a balance circuit is tolerable IF it is well designed and of high quality IF some other advantage is to be had from using prismatic cells. BUT, what actual knowledge do you have that these are good batteries beyond the very first tests that do indeed show the battery can put out current.

Also, how is 4s (4 cells in Series) superior to a greater number of smaller cells in parallel from a real world standpoint? Cells in parallel are virtually never a problem from a balance standpoint because cells in parallel will virtually always balance if if they are low quality. Cells in series are where the balance problem will occur if the cells are not perfectly matched and a 4S-1P battery has the same balance issues all other things being equal as a 4S-5P battery.

Further regardless of weather you are talking the worlds largest prismatic cell or the worlds smallest cylindrical cell, one hard short, one solid dendrite, one breached container and dry out.... will destroy that cell. The difference is if a battery is made up of 4 cells in series and one cell fails then the battery is completely useless. If on the other hand the battery is made up of 4 seriesed stacks of say 4 cells in parallel and one cell hard shorts, then theres a better then even chance that that single cell will pop its current interrupt check out, and you will still have a working battery though a battery with one fourth less capacity that is going to develop a balance problem over time.

4S and one fails, your walking. 4S-4P one cell fails and odds are you can ride out and replace the battery at your convenience.

Once again, I LIKE earthX so far but don't have nearly enough time testing or experience with them in the real world to say they are better or worse, good or bad compared to anything beyond Shorai which every test and real world come back ratios revealed was a piece of junk.

Through intensive and extensive testing AND over 100 sold by my dealership without a single failure I can and do recommend Antigravity batteries. earthX may turn out to be a better battery, better in some applications, not as good, or a piece of junk.

Where _cy_ are you seeing a real world proven advantage of earthX batteries to recommend them beyond a load test and advertising about a balance circuit and what I believe to be the incorrect assumption that they have over-voltage protection?

[_cy_]

a clarification about importance of cells remaining in balance within a series/parallel cell battery.

it takes 4x LiFePO4 cells in series (4s) to make up correct voltage that mates to 12v system. prismatic cell batteries uses cells of different sizes to make up different AH batteries. number of prismatic cells always remain 4s for a 12v system.

cylindrical cell LiFePO4 batteries also use 4s configuration to achieve proper voltage to match 12v system. there are several sizes for cylindrical li-ion cells. for instance 18650 denotes 18mm x 650mm ... the most common size used for motorcycle batteries are 26650 or 26mm diameter x 650mm long.

A123 makes the highest quality cylindrical LiFePO4 cells... one 26650 = 2.3AH at 3.3v nominal ... so 4x 26650 in 4s = 13.2v @ 2.3AH ... an 8 cell 26650 uses two stacks of 4s cells in parallel to make a 4.6AH battery.

12 cell 26650 uses three stacks of 4s cells in parallel = 6.9AH battery... add 2.3AH for each additional 4s stack in parallel, so a 24 cell battery has 6x stacks of 4s cells in parallel.

if/when a single cell goes out of balance, that stack has a lower voltage than rest of stacks in parallel. which immediately will reverse flow to weaker stack. if out of balance cell is severe, due to lithium batteries low internal resistance, discharge to weaker stack will destroy battery.

if I understand correctly, Joel has purposely unbalanced LiFePO4 cells in 4s to approx 8% differences and watched cells achieve balance again towards end of charge.

will be recreating this scenario and many others during balance tests in progress ... more to come on this topic

[_cy_]

Originally Posted by JoelWisman

_cy_ This is WAY ahead of actual knowledge. earthX is using nice thick intercel connectors that are 2x what Shorai is using, but they are no stronger then Antigravity. Their case does not appear to be as tough or water proof as Antigravity but I believe I have an early production unit so will reserve judgement. There or so many variables that go into a battery you can trust your life to beyond good warm weather current output and the presence of something that is stated to be a balancing circuit that does not break after a few weeks of testing..



This is indeed modern theory which changes regularly but does not necessarily have bearing beyond a piece of paper that it is written on.
1: I have two 16 cell Antigravity A123 26650 batteries that I buzzed the tops off of for testing individual cell balance via micro volts and low and high rate capacity testing as well as an Antigravity 4 cell and 20 cell. Even on the test units that have cells that are bulging since testing super high current draw, every cell is still balanced better then 1%. These are batteries that have not only been tested in ways that proved destructive to both Shorai and Ballistic but have spent every day since testing in actual modern adventure bikes being used daily. All of these 56 cells have been once again tested for balance in the last two weeks cell by cell and ALL ARE STILL in balance. One 16 cell has been in testing and use for just over a year now and the other 3 batteries have been in testing and use for greater then 7 months.

In what way is a battery with a balance circuit better then one that through imperial data does not need a balance circuit?



In what way is a battery that has a balance circuit better then a battery that does not have one because it does not need one? If you don't need a balance circuit then all the presence of a balance circuit does is create more things that can go wrong compromising the battery on its own?

I have never seen a prismatic cell that didn't need a balance circuit because the nature of the cell being unconfined and vulnerable to being squished and giggled as well as the tendency I have observed for manufacturing tolerance to be larger with large prismatic cells versus the amazingly tight tolerances A123 26650 cells are manufactured to. So... On larger prismatic cells a properly designed and quality manufactured balance circuit is a plus, but it is NOT a plus over a cylindrical circuit that does not need balancing on it's own.



Where are you seeing over-voltage protection on the earthX battery? I may have missed a few electronics engineering classes due to being hung over but am still reasonably certain that I would notice something on a circuit card that could dissipate hundreds of watts or disconnect the battery during an over-voltage event. It isn't there! earthX has no over-voltage protection that I can find.


NOW...... I am absolutely NOT giving earthX a thumbs down, nor a thumbs up. It will take at least a few more months more before I start forming a significant opinion of any kind. The inclusion of a balance circuit is tolerable IF it is well designed and of high quality IF some other advantage is to be had from using prismatic cells. BUT, what actual knowledge do you have that these are good batteries beyond the very first tests that do indeed show the battery can put out current.

Also, how is 4s (4 cells in Series) superior to a greater number of smaller cells in parallel from a real world standpoint? Cells in parallel are virtually never a problem from a balance standpoint because cells in parallel will virtually always balance if if they are low quality. Cells in series are where the balance problem will occur if the cells are not perfectly matched and a 4S-1P battery has the same balance issues all other things being equal as a 4S-5P battery.

Further regardless of weather you are talking the worlds largest prismatic cell or the worlds smallest cylindrical cell, one hard short, one solid dendrite, one breached container and dry out.... will destroy that cell. The difference is if a battery is made up of 4 cells in series and one cell fails then the battery is completely useless. If on the other hand the battery is made up of 4 seriesed stacks of say 4 cells in parallel and one cell hard shorts, then theres a better then even chance that that single cell will pop its current interrupt check out, and you will still have a working battery though a battery with one fourth less capacity that is going to develop a balance problem over time.

4S and one fails, your walking. 4S-4P one cell fails and odds are you can ride out and replace the battery at your convenience.

Once again, I LIKE earthX so far but don't have nearly enough time testing or experience with them in the real world to say they are better or worse, good or bad compared to anything beyond Shorai which every test and real world come back ratios revealed was a piece of junk.

Through intensive and extensive testing AND over 100 sold by my dealership without a single failure I can and do recommend Antigravity batteries. earthX may turn out to be a better battery, better in some applications, not as good, or a piece of junk.

Where _cy_ are you seeing a real world proven advantage of earthX batteries to recommend them beyond a load test and advertising about a balance circuit and what I believe to be the incorrect assumption that they have over-voltage protection?

true enough Earth-X still has to prove it self in long terms tests. overcharge protection is limited to 3 amp on Earth-X balance circuits.

as each cell reaches a set voltage, excess voltage is shunted off until a set point is reached. this allows cells that have not reached cut-off voltage to reach full charge.

balance circuits will not work until full charge is reached. so balance circuit also acts as an overcharge protection circuit within limits. which are 3 amp on Earth-X boards.

provided one doesn't jack up volts to push current into a 4s stack. LiFePO4 cells naturally reduces amount of current it will accept closer it gets to full charge. so a 3 amp limit should be plenty to prevent overcharge within normal charge voltages of a 12v charger.

Antigravity is an excellent battery as proven by your dealership's zero failure rate for Antigravity. but don't underestimate advantage of your recommendation of correct size Antigravity battery for each bike. will the bike be used for Starbuck duties or Adventure bike duties to parts unknown?

IMHO a major reason for failures for LiFePO4 motorcycle batteries is mfg under sizing recommended batteries. the dreaded combo of Cold short motorcycle rides with heated gear will result in a motorcycle that will not start the next morning.

[skidxr]

For a 990 ADV running heated gear, grips, GPS, HID and charge cell phone?

Should I get the ETX18C or ETX24C ? It's about 40 bucks cost difference, will it work better for me?

I ride the in the back country and need my battery to work.

Thanks...

[WayneC1]

Bigger is better, at least in this case

[cyborg]

Originally Posted by skidxr

For a 990 ADV running heated gear, grips, GPS, HID and charge cell phone?

Should I get the ETX18C or ETX24C ? It's about 40 bucks cost difference, will it work better for me?

I ride the in the back country and need my battery to work.

Thanks...

The Shorai 18aH was too small for rapid below freezing starts on my '07 990S. The EarthX ETX18C was also not enough power for quick below freezing starts . I now am running the EarthX ETX24C and happy with it so far. Solid starts from 25F on up.

Again, it's not the size of your accessory loads that determines battery size. If your alternator alone can't keep up with the entire bike loads accessories and all, a battery of ANY size will drain and eventually die. The cheapest way to monitor if your charging system is keeping up is to add a simple voltmeter to the dash.

[slidefighter]

Joel/CY/Others: I just came across this thread and just wanted to thank all of your for all the effort that's been put into it. Nice job. I've got a new 690, so I'm guessing my 'factory battery' (whatever it is?!) will last long enough to find out what manufacturer/model the eventual winner will be!

Thanks again, I'll be checking back regularly...


Lee...

[rider911]

Hey Joel what is your opinion on mounting an Antigravity small case 16 cell battery on its side. It will be in a KTM 990 Adv that gets used offroad 90% of the time. Just wondering about longevity seeing you are familiar with how they're put together.

Cheers
911

[JoelWisman]

LiFePO4 batteries using cylindracle cells are electrically completely unaffected by mounting orientation. Further, Antigravity is heavier then most because the cells are potted into the case, so it should be fine no mater what orientation you mount the Antigravity in.

[daveyedgar]

so just hypothetically speaking if one were to make their own lifepo4 battery pack would these batteries be acceptable?
http://dx.com/p/18650-rechargeable-l...k-1350mah-1879

or has this been covered in another thread...