The XL600 thread

[doc.heckle]

Just ridden mine for the first time , to say impressed is an understatement , pulls like a train and doesn't vibrate as much as my tuono, one happy customer, going to check my valve clearances as the engine is too quiet !!

[ElMartillo]

After installing new fork seals and steering bearings yesterday, my new-to-me '83 XL600r would not start. I have been having intermittant starting issues, sometimes she'd fire up with a single kick, sometimes I'd have to jump on her for 10 mins. Now, nothing. Won't start with starting fluid, I'm detecting what I consider to be a very weak spark with a brand new spark plug. Is there a common problem with this bike such as bad coil or something I should be looking at?

Thanks in advance,

Cheers!

[Carter Pewterschmidt]

Originally Posted by davek181

OK, here it is. The spring is progressive wound with tighter coils on one end and it tapers down in diameter for about the last 4 coils or so. Small end ID 19.6, OD 29.2. Big end ID 29.23 OD 32.7. Overall length 22 3/8 inches. Additionally there was a spacer on top of the spring 2 3/4 inch in length and a washer between them 1.5 mm thick. coil cross section 4.78 diameter, 62 coils. Travel I don't know exactly, no way to measure, but I would use advertised wheel travel for that. The manual doesn't give travel specs.

I didn't buy the bike new so I don't know if previous owner changed springs in the forks before me, but I suspect not. 87 XL600 forks.

Thanks man. Sent this off in an email to race tech and awaiting response.

[doc.heckle]

Elmartilo the stators seem to go bad at the drop of a hat !

[m2h]

Originally Posted by m2h

Thanks Dave I had the feeling the bike was not getting the gas so i think you're onto it with regards the jetting. I will take your advice and am going to try a 120, 118, 65 combo. Will let you know how it goes. Am still waiting for my conrod to arrive from partzilla
Regards
M2H

Am having trouble getting ANY jets at all for my bike. The Keihin catalogue doesn't even list the PH model. Honda only list thier standard 115,112 sizes.
Looked at other sites Sudco, Jetsrus etc to no useful end.

Davek181 you seem to have explored this jetting thing pretty well
where did you get your jets from please? Just to make sure i have the same jets as you guys: O/A length is 39mm , 7mm dia thread X 12.5 long, 6.5mm long hexagonal nut, 5mm X 17.5mm long emulsifier tube.
Am getting a bit antsy costs are mounting Partzilla cant seem to find crankcase gasket part numbers and taking their time. Have all my other bits done tho, valve grind, top end is good, rebore, conrod/crank refit.
M2H

[davek181]

I get my jets from jetsrus, I just looked at their site and they have a listing by make and model. The listing for xr/xl 600 lists the proper slow jet, but they show the wrong main jet. There are basically two main jets, the hex head and screw head. My XL has XR carbs but the jets are the same hex head. Look in XR600 93- on listing and they show the right jets for hex application I believe. Measure to be sure though.

I looked up the crancase gasket and got 11191-MN1-700 for a part number. I looked it up on Babbits onlne and they show a price of just under $14.00. Your local dealer may be able to get one too.

[ElMartillo]

Originally Posted by doc.heckle

Elmartilo the stators seem to go bad at the drop of a hat !

What symptoms would a failing/failed stator display? Is there a way to troubleshoot the stator?

Thanks!

[Zombie_Stomp]

Originally Posted by ElMartillo

What symptoms would a failing/failed stator display? Is there a way to troubleshoot the stator?

Thanks!

Yes: although I just guessed and bought one when I had weak spark, there is a way to diagnose it. You will need a multimeter that measures resistance in a circuit, and a manual or someone with a manual to tell you the values that it should measure between wires of certain colors. What you will do is unplug the stator from the wire harness and hold your multimeter probes on two terminals at a time, as specified by color from the manual. This will measure the resistance that it is, versus what the manual says it should measure, in ohms, the unit of resistance. If it is not right, you may have a shorted coil in your stator. Capice?

[Carter Pewterschmidt]

Originally Posted by m2h

Am having trouble getting ANY jets at all for my bike. The Keihin catalogue doesn't even list the PH model. Honda only list thier standard 115,112 sizes.
Looked at other sites Sudco, Jetsrus etc to no useful end.

Davek181 you seem to have explored this jetting thing pretty well
where did you get your jets from please? Just to make sure i have the same jets as you guys: O/A length is 39mm , 7mm dia thread X 12.5 long, 6.5mm long hexagonal nut, 5mm X 17.5mm long emulsifier tube.
Am getting a bit antsy costs are mounting Partzilla cant seem to find crankcase gasket part numbers and taking their time. Have all my other bits done tho, valve grind, top end is good, rebore, conrod/crank refit.
M2H

All XL carbs I've seen use the standard slot type Keihin jet. They are the 99101-393 type shown here on the site I purchase jets from. It's a standard street carb style jet. The same as were in my ZR550 Kawasaki. On this page they're the forth one down the page.
http://www.pjmotorsports.com/keihin-jets.html

The XR carbs with the quick change float bowls use the hex type jet shown as 99101-357 on that same site. Sounds like you may have those.

[davek181]

Originally Posted by Carter Pewterschmidt

All XL carbs I've seen use the standard slot type Keihin jet. They are the 99101-393 type shown here on the site I purchase jets from. It's a standard street carb style jet. The same as were in my ZR550 Kawasaki. On this page they're the forth one down the page.
http://www.pjmotorsports.com/keihin-jets.html

The XR carbs with the quick change float bowls use the hex type jet shown as 99101-357 on that same site. Sounds like you may have those.

Not to start and argument, just trying to add to the knowledge base, but I have bought some eBay carbs for an XL of unknown vintage for parts and they had hex jets in them. I don't remember what year they were, but they had the 108 main in the secondary carb, so whatever year they did that. They were XL carbs with the standard float bowls and larger slow jets, I was secretly hoping to get another set of quick change bowls and XR needles but no such luck. The other parts I wanted like the primary slide and linkage is identical across all models and that is why I bought them. Another difference I have heard of but have no examples of is that some models use a fuel mixture screw and others have an air mixture instead like all of mine.

I think the screw head jets and hex heads are interchangeable with each other as the sizing is the same, just the depth of the float bowl is different. i think you could use the screw head in all carbs, but not necessarily the other way around. You are correct in the identification and numbering of the different ones. As I mentioned, measure to be sure and match what you have design wise. As far as I know there are only the two styles in main jets. The XR and XL slow jets are also the same except for sizing. The XR used a lot smaller one for some internal design reason unknown to me. XR needles are different too, and the choke.

[ElMartillo]

Originally Posted by Zombie_Stomp

Yes: although I just guessed and bought one when I had weak spark, there is a way to diagnose it. You will need a multimeter that measures resistance in a circuit, and a manual or someone with a manual to tell you the values that it should measure between wires of certain colors. What you will do is unplug the stator from the wire harness and hold your multimeter probes on two terminals at a time, as specified by color from the manual. This will measure the resistance that it is, versus what the manual says it should measure, in ohms, the unit of resistance. If it is not right, you may have a shorted coil in your stator. Capice?

Good description of the process, now to find the source of correct resistance values...

Would you say my description of symptoms are indicative of a bad stator?

Looking around on Thumpertalk, I saw a re-solder fix for XR CDI units. In your experience, is the ignition unit a more/less likely cause of the weak spark?

Thanks for the feedback...

[Carter Pewterschmidt]

Originally Posted by davek181

Not to start and argument, just trying to add to the knowledge base, but I have bought some eBay carbs for an XL of unknown vintage for parts and they had hex jets in them. I don't remember what year they were, but they had the 108 main in the secondary carb, so whatever year they did that. They were XL carbs with the standard float bowls and larger slow jets, I was secretly hoping to get another set of quick change bowls and XR needles but no such luck. The other parts I wanted like the primary slide and linkage is identical across all models and that is why I bought them. Another difference I have heard of but have no examples of is that some models use a fuel mixture screw and others have an air mixture instead like all of mine.

I think the screw head jets and hex heads are interchangeable with each other as the sizing is the same, just the depth of the float bowl is different. i think you could use the screw head in all carbs, but not necessarily the other way around. You are correct in the identification and numbering of the different ones. As I mentioned, measure to be sure and match what you have design wise. As far as I know there are only the two styles in main jets. The XR and XL slow jets are also the same except for sizing. The XR used a lot smaller one for some internal design reason unknown to me. XR needles are different too, and the choke.

I've been through six different sets of dual carbs over the winter and I can confirm everything else you've said is true. The chokes are different from XR to XL but it's just a bracket that can be switched, which if I read correctly you've already done. The 83 XL carbs have the different mixture screw that goes into the side instead of being on the bottom. I'm wondering what the ID number is on that XL carb set you found with the hex jets.

The ID numbers I've found go as follows. The two sets of 83 carbs I went through were the PH60 and the rest I found were all PH68. All of those had the slot style jets. The XR600R carb set was numbered PH52 and that had hex style with the quick change bowls. The only other set with hex jets I found were the XR500R carbs PH50. Those had the quick change bowls that are interchangeable with the XL carb bowls. (That's not the case with the XR6 PH52 carb bowls. Those have a different pattern on the bottom of the carb body so the bowls do not interchange to any other carb set I'm aware of.) I found out about the XR5 bowls because both the XR5 and XL6 carbs actually use the same O-ring kit part number which means all seals are the same pattern. Nice thing is that you even get the big quick change bowl plug O-ring. BUT when I tried to put the XL carb bowls on the XR carbs they wouldn't tighten down all the way because they bottomed out on the longer hex jet. Maybe you could crank them in a bit further but I didn't attempt it. You can see how much longer they are in this picture. I've finished my 83 XL carbs with the XR5 float bowls and I switched them to hex jets. They actually poke out the bottom of the plug hole which with a XL bowl would be close to if not touching bottom.

[brucifer]

Originally Posted by Carter Pewterschmidt

Thanks man. Sent this off in an email to race tech and awaiting response.

I see another poster answered already but here's what I came up with.


Looks like 22 3/16.

Pic of the progressively wound coils. It's 1 1/4 diameter here.

Pic of the top. 1 3/16 here.

Another pic of the bottom. Just for information, the service limit is 21.93 according to my Honda service manual.

[davek181]

Originally Posted by Carter Pewterschmidt

I've been through six different sets of dual carbs over the winter and I can confirm everything else you've said is true. The chokes are different from XR to XL but it's just a bracket that can be switched, which if I read correctly you've already done. The 83 XL carbs have the different mixture screw that goes into the side instead of being on the bottom. I'm wondering what the ID number is on that XL carb set you found with the hex jets.

The ID numbers I've found go as follows. The two sets of 83 carbs I went through were the PH60 and the rest I found were all PH68. All of those had the slot style jets. The XR600R carb set was numbered PH52 and that had hex style with the quick change bowls. The only other set with hex jets I found were the XR500R carbs PH50. Those had the quick change bowls that are interchangeable with the XL carb bowls. (That's not the case with the XR6 PH52 carb bowls. Those have a different pattern on the bottom of the carb body so the bowls do not interchange to any other carb set I'm aware of.) I found out about the XR5 bowls because both the XR5 and XL6 carbs actually use the same O-ring kit part number which means all seals are the same pattern. Nice thing is that you even get the big quick change bowl plug O-ring. BUT when I tried to put the XL carb bowls on the XR carbs they wouldn't tighten down all the way because they bottomed out on the longer hex jet. Maybe you could crank them in a bit further but I didn't attempt it. You can see how much longer they are in this picture. I've finished my 83 XL carbs with the XR5 float bowls and I switched them to hex jets. They actually poke out the bottom of the plug hole which with a XL bowl would be close to if not touching bottom.

I stand corrected. I pulled the bowls off both the remaining XL carb sets I have one is a ph 68, and the other is a ph 64. both have the screw type jets. I guess I never paid much attention since I was always dealing with my xr carbs and hex jets with screw off covers. By the way, the jet projection you show on the hex jet is very close to what I am used to seeing. You can just get a wrench on it to change it.

[ElMartillo]

Originally Posted by ElMartillo

Good description of the process, now to find the source of correct resistance values...

Would you say my description of symptoms are indicative of a bad stator?

Looking around on Thumpertalk, I saw a re-solder fix for XR CDI units. In your experience, is the ignition unit a more/less likely cause of the weak spark?

Thanks for the feedback...

UPDATE: Apparently I was mis-diagnosing the problem. Noticing the spark plug was wet with fuel after multiple attempts to start, I noticed the choke plunger was up slightly out of it's normal closed position on the carb. Looking at the other end of the cable at the handlebars I found the cable-end was out of it's normal position and was hung up on the holder, effectively holding the choke closed very slightly. This is what was causing the lack of ignition. Started up and runs great now!

Happy it wasn't an expensive fix, as this is a low-budget project...

Now to see how the new fork oil and steering bearings affect the handling in the dirt!

Cheers all!