Routing with Garmin's Montana/Oregon/62/78/eTrex XX

[bnordgren]

Originally Posted by snooker

So my conclusion for the Montana set to any NON-Direct routing activity is that the maximum number of "all types of Via Points" it is able to autoroute successfully is:
- 51 if saved in BaseCamp in any NON-Direct activity profile
OR
- 50 is saved in BaseCamp in the Direct activity profile

Hi. Newbie messing with a Montana 650t, having the routable openstreetmaps installed over montana. I just want to clarify (verify?) that this 50/51 point limit applies only to points you explicitly specify ("via points" or "shaping points") and not the invisible ones that the routing process adds ("hidden points").

I just made a simple loop with 8 points (Alberton, Polson, Kalispell, West Glacier, Hot Springs, Thompson Falls, Saint Regis, Alberton) which generated 61 points in the "total" field. The difference, I assume, are the hidden points. This re-routed fine when transferred to the GPS. I was also able to hit GO, and it was quite happy to oblige.

Is there a known limit on the total points? Some of the weekend loop routes I'm planning using City Nav Europe have quite a few hidden points in them.

[snooker]

Originally Posted by bnordgren

Hi. Newbie messing with a Montana 650t, having the routable openstreetmaps installed over montana. I just want to clarify (verify?) that this 50/51 point limit applies only to points you explicitly specify ("via points" or "shaping points") and not the invisible ones that the routing process adds ("hidden points").

I just made a simple loop with 8 points (Alberton, Polson, Kalispell, West Glacier, Hot Springs, Thompson Falls, Saint Regis, Alberton) which generated 61 points in the "total" field. The difference, I assume, are the hidden points. This re-routed fine when transferred to the GPS. I was also able to hit GO, and it was quite happy to oblige.

Is there a known limit on the total points? Some of the weekend loop routes I'm planning using City Nav Europe have quite a few hidden points in them.

I'm no expert but a newbie like you, however based on my experiments (see post 9) in the example below of a BaseCamp route with:

51 total Via Points (49 Shaping + 2 Waypoints), saved in BaseCamp as a Non-Direct (Motorcycling) route, and also showed the total "Points" as 110... and the Montana was able to route it properly. Using CNNANT on both BaseCamp and Montana.

So at least 110 is not a problem and I have NO idea even IF there is a limit. Perhaps someone else knows. But nobody has commented that there is any limitation on this as far as I know.

Based on pure speculation as a software engineer myself, I would think that the Via Points you specify in BaseCamp are then "inputs" to the routing algorithm that it is "required" to satisfy... so that more input points would make the task more complex... Whereas the other calculated "hidden" points that become part of the "Points" total are more of a "result" of the algorithm simply matching the required route to the map data and it just records these "outputs" which are simple and do not make the problem more difficult like more "inputs" would.

...or not??

[ramz]

Based on pure speculation as a software engineer myself, I would think that the Via Points you specify in BaseCamp are then "inputs" to the routing algorithm that it is "required" to satisfy... so that more input points would make the task more complex... Whereas the other calculated "hidden" points that become part of the "Points" total are more of a "result" of the algorithm simply matching the required route to the map data and it just records these "outputs" which are simple and do not make the problem more difficult like more "inputs" would.

...or not??

You really work at Garmin, don't you?

Head of software development, or chief of algorithms?

[snooker]

Originally Posted by ramz

You really work at Garmin, don't you?

Head of software development, or chief of algorithms?

right. head of the operational speculation department.

[snooker]

Some basics have been covered so far as to defining terms and showing limitations in the number of "points".

What would be of great use IMHO is to now make this thread a repository for "How do YOU do routing?".. In other words a collection of what DOES work, aka your favorite "use model" or "Best Practices".

So PLEASE POST any Best Practices for Routing in this thread. Make sure your GPSr is one of the devices titled in this thread though!!!

When posting, give your GPSr model name and anything else important to know (like "activity profile" as it was uploaded from BaseCamp and as set on the GPSr, mapset and revision, etc.)

These devices can do SO MANY things that beginners like me need a suggested starting point! It might not be perfect for everyone but it is a start!

Thanks!

[Emmbeedee]

Originally Posted by snooker

Some basics have been covered so far as to defining terms and showing limitations in the number of "points".

What would be of great use IMHO is to now make this thread a repository for "How do YOU do routing?".. In other words a collection of what DOES work, aka your favorite "use model" or "Best Practices".

So PLEASE POST any Best Practices for Routing in this thread. Make sure your GPSr is one of the devices titled in this thread though!!!

When posting, give your GPSr model name and anything else important to know (like "activity profile" as it was uploaded from BaseCamp and as set on the GPSr, mapset and revision, etc.)

These devices can do SO MANY things that beginners like me need a suggested starting point! It might not be perfect for everyone but it is a start!

Thanks!

All good ideas. Thanks for putting some thought into this.

[snooker]

Ok I'll get the Best Practices Started. I'm calling this one:

Transfer Routes from BC as Direct

The main thing I have been experimenting with for routing was based on a suggestion by DRTBYK for the Montana, that I will summarize:

1. Basically you would use BaseCamp, and set to your preferred Non-Direct routing activity. You should always use the exact same routing activity including the same avoidances (Interstate, etc) as you later plan on using on your GPSr.

2. Then set Waypoints and/or Shaping Points until you like the final autorouting you see.

(3). (At this stage in BC you can save it as a Track also... which is ultimately always more reliable than routes, but I digress...)

4. Now the main point: Change the activity in BC to Direct *BEFORE* you transfer them to your GPSr.

5. Now on the GPSr you should always use a profile that uses the same routing activity (and avoidances) as you had in BaseCamp. (Also use the same mapset).

This will cause the GPSr to autoroute and since all settings are identical you will have the "best chance" of getting an identical route as you saw in BaseCamp (it has been debated whether the Montana uses the same or similar routing algorithm as BaseCamp).

But there are more reasons to transfer a route from BC as Direct.
One is that on the Montana you can use the Route Planner app and select the route and pick things like:
- Reverse Route. (I use this to experiment with 1 Direct route to commute to work, then Reverse it to get home, as a trial). This will know the direction you are headed so the items like miles to finish will be correct.
- Edit Route. You can insert, reorder, delete via points (gas stations!) and it autoroutes the edits either while you are currently navigating it or not.

More Tips:
- When you also transfer the Track to the Montana, you can quickly compare the Track (which is perfect and does not change) to the autorouted Route and see if it looks correct.

- In BC, do not place shaping points right AT an intersection but rather after an intersection, and this minimizes the chance of autorouting locking up.

- In BC, when you have the route the way you like it and switch to Direct activity, try switching back to your Non-Direct and confirm it autoroutes correctly (this mimics a fresh autoroute on the GPSr as much as possible).

- Even DRTBYK admits that TRACKS RULE! They are absolute and are always reliable. In fact you can navigate a track and get some of the "miles to destination" features of a route, but not as complete. So it is worth it to always create a track and transfer it over if the ride is important!!!

Here is the original post where DRTBYK describes this method. You can expand the page to see the discussion but I will quite him here:

Originally Posted by DRTBYK

The Montana ...
... But, I have come across Routes that would lock up the navigation at certain places along the route. I believe that these lockups are caused by Via Points placed at Intersections. This does not happen all of the time - which makes it very hard to diagnose just what the heck is going on. I have never had a Route lockup if I placed my Via Points after Intersections when I needed them.

As has been discussed, if you want to make sure your route will calculate properly create a Route in BaseCamp that follows the path you want and then create a Track of the Route. Just before sending your Routes/Tracks to the Montana, change your Routes to Direct Routes. Once on the Montana make sure your Routing Activity is set to Automotive or Motorcycle Driving. This will cause the Montana to calculate your Route into an along-road route. Now you can compare it to the Track as mentioned and verify that the Montana calculated the route as you intended. The side benefit of this process is that you can now EDIT this route on the Montana - including reversing the Route.
Cheers,

[snooker]

Transfer Routes from BC as Direct

Using the above method, here is an example of how to:

Edit a Route on Montana:

This only works if you have transferred a route from BC as a Direct route, as outlined above.

Now on the Montana you are trying to autoroute it by using a routing activity of your choice but most like following the directions above so that the Non-Direct activity matches the setting you had in BC originally.

The key is that on the Montana you must use the Route Planner app itself to edit the route. This works whether you are actively navigating the route or not.

STEPS:
1. In Route Planner you first select the route by name. This will bring up the options page (note that because this is a Direct Route you can also select "Reverse Route", kinda handy).

2. When you select Edit Route then you see the Via Points, Shaping Points and Waypoints currently in the route to choose from. (You won't know what kind they are but the points match what was originally in BC as explained in earlier posts).

3. To insert a new item before any existing one for example, click an item then on the next page you can pick Insert to insert an item before it.

This simply inserts the new item and does not affect any of the already existing items.

Here is a set of examples from the Montana Wiki that has a series of waypoints for a route:

......
Route Planner



This works for me, of course there are surely other preferred (even better!) ways... so post them!

[FireDog45]

My 2720 would let me search along my current route or destination. I can't seem to find this feature on my Montana 600 running CNNA NT 2013.1.

I set up a short basic route on the 600 (both route planner and where to) then went to Where To > menu > search near. The choices don't include "current route" or "destination".

Am I missing something or is it not possible?

(And if this is the wrong forum let me know and I'll repost)

[Emmbeedee]

Originally Posted by FireDog45

My 2720 would let me search along my current route or destination. I can't seem to find this feature on my Montana 600 running CNNA NT 2013.1.

I set up a short basic route on the 600 (both route planner and where to) then went to Where To > menu > search near. The choices don't include "current route" or "destination".

Am I missing something or is it not possible?

(And if this is the wrong forum let me know and I'll repost)

I think it's not possible. You might want to suggest it to Garmin, though, to see if they'll include it in a future software release.

[FireDog45]

Originally Posted by Emmbeedee

I think it's not possible. You might want to suggest it to Garmin, though, to see if they'll include it in a future software release.

That was going to be the next step but wanted to see if I was missing anything first. Thanks for the feedback.

[Emmbeedee]

New Basecamp Version Available: BaseCamp software version 4.1.2

Changes made from version 4.1.1 to 4.1.2:
Fixed an issue with Basestation mode.
Fixed an issue where BaseCamp would not remember the positioning of the toolbars correctly.
Fixed an issue where the Custom POI symbols from POI files where incorrect.
Fixed an issue with the address search.
Fixed an issue where refreshing a search was using the last location on the map, not the current one.
Fixed an issue where Cutting (Ctrl-X) a photo on a device would delete the photo and prevent the user from pasting it.
Fixed an issue with some Asian language map products.
Fixed an issue with deleting track points.
Fixed an issue with route creation in a folder.
Fixed an issue where the hand tool was not always set as the default tool.
Fixed some menu inconsistencies between find results, context menus, and map popup menus.

[snooker]

Originally Posted by FireDog45

My 2720 would let me search along my current route or destination. I can't seem to find this feature on my Montana 600 running CNNA NT 2013.1.

I set up a short basic route on the 600 (both route planner and where to) then went to Where To > menu > search near. The choices don't include "current route" or "destination".

Am I missing something or is it not possible?

(And if this is the wrong forum let me know and I'll repost)

I'm not exactly sure what you are saying, but...

To be clear, you can do this, which is very similar tho not the same:
There are several ways to get to the "Search Near" pick from the Menu button (3 horizonal bars) on the bottom. After you press Search Near you get these choices:
A Recent Find
A Waypoint
My Current Location
A Map Point

So as a workaround you can see the route and use A Map Point to move around along the route and select a point. Or if you are looking for something coming up along the route you can use either that or My Currentl Location. These work pretty good if you want something close by while you are already navigating. Of course not the same.

Also instead of "destination", isn't the destination also a waypoint? so you can at least pick if from the A Waypoint selection.

... as a workaround.

[FireDog45]

Originally Posted by snooker

I'm not exactly sure what you are saying, but...

To be clear, you can do this, which is very similar tho not the same:
There are several ways to get to the "Search Near" pick from the Menu button (3 horizonal bars) on the bottom. After you press Search Near you get these choices:
A Recent Find
A Waypoint
My Current Location
A Map Point

So as a workaround you can see the route and use A Map Point to move around along the route and select a point. Or if you are looking for something coming up along the route you can use either that or My Currentl Location. These work pretty good if you want something close by while you are already navigating. Of course not the same.

Also instead of "destination", isn't the destination also a waypoint? so you can at least pick if from the A Waypoint selection.

... as a workaround.

I saw that but it is a bit fiddly to do. The 2720 would just give you a list from closest to farthest along the route AND it would update as you rolled along. Made it nice when looking for fuel because you knew how far down the road you had to go.

As a side note I emailed the Montana team with this as well as mentioned it to tech support when I called yesterday (unrelated) and she was putting in a ticket to them as well.

[snooker]

That does sound really useful. So don't hold your breath on it happening I mean I'm sure they have bigger priorities unfortunately but glad you submitted to Garmin.