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Old 03-14-2013, 06:03 PM   #1576
BlueLghtning
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Hey Crafty, I haven't even begun to use this app to its full potential, but your commitment to the webpage and app since the conception has been 2nd to none and it would really be a shame to see it go away. I really hate to hear that the re-write is going to be so difficult and time consuming.

I contributed a bit now and hope to contribute more in the near future.

Let's hope you get some support from all the users that really enjoy this application.

Thanks,

Dan
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Old 03-15-2013, 06:03 AM   #1577
gbmaz
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Crafty-

Is the PayPal link from the DSM website a $10 one time donation or a $10/month reoccurring donation?

The PayPal terms say "$10.00 USD for each month".

I definitely want to donate more than $10, but a $10/month might be more than I want to do.

I think you have addressed this previously, but have you considered a Kickstarter?

I have seen it work on some very niche products. My wife is in to sewing historic dresses and a woman who makes very elaborate patterns put up a Kickstarter for a new dress pattern with a $7500 (to fund initial print runs of pattern) goal and a 2 month timeline. She met the goal in 12 hours and doubled it in 2 weeks.

Just a thought, really want to see this work out, but completely understand your need to do little things like feed your kids and pay the mortgage.

George
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Old 03-15-2013, 07:04 AM   #1578
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It is a $10/month button. The site costs about $1500/month to keep online. The "high" cost is because of some rather expensive choices I made at the very beginning because I did not really consider the cost at all when I started and it just sort of took on a life of it's own with the baked in high cost structures. The kind of help the site needs is regular so the donation link was setup to be regular. If the site is not worth it to you or you cannot afford it please do not invest in it. I cannot stress enough how completely voluntary this entire project is and has been (for me and everyone else).

We are facing two issues currently. The primary issue is that the site goes offline in late May unless it is rewritten. That requires a lot of effort to do which translates roughly (though not directly) to money. The second issue is the fact that dualsportmaps.com is not trivially expensive to operate. I've been supporting it for years now because I really felt our community needed a tool like this. I'm not very good about asking for help but when I finally decided to face the fact that the site needs to be rewritten a few days ago I realized how one-sided this entire relationship between DSM, its users, and myself is. My financial and temporal subjugation has been completely voluntary though. Whatever "fault" exists is mine alone.

The Kickstarter idea isn't a terrible one. I am not exactly "comfortable" with accepting donations while not being committed to actually doing the work. Having raised a mere $140 toward the rewrite fund is not encouraging. A Kickstarter would allow the money to be returned without incurring fees if the goal is not met. This seems like a much better system actually because it spares the hard feelings or the 10% the donations are costing me currently if we don't raise the money needed to do the work. As I mentioned a few days ago though, if I set a goal and we don't meet it I will feel obliged to kill the site (choices must have consequences). An outcome I'm not sure I'm ready to accept. Conveniently, the reality is what it is and my acceptance of it is not going to change it.

Rock - - Hard place

Clearly, I've not really thought any of this through. I got the memo from Google around Christmas telling me that the site was going offline in May but ignored it because I was putting in 80 hour work weeks and I didn't have the energy to deal with it. I somehow convinced myself it was a summer time problem and I still had time. I checked the date a couple days ago and realized its a May problem. May is RIGHT around the corner which explains my new sense of urgency.

I don't know the right answer. You inmates are the people I wrote the website for in the first place. Perhaps you guys should tell me. Would you be more inclined to contribute if I setup a Kickstarter and "promised" to do the requisite labor if the requested money came in? (As opposed to the system now where I just have my hat in my hand but am making no promises.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by gbmaz View Post
Crafty-

Is the PayPal link from the DSM website a $10 one time donation or a $10/month reoccurring donation?

The PayPal terms say "$10.00 USD for each month".

I definitely want to donate more than $10, but a $10/month might be more than I want to do.

I think you have addressed this previously, but have you considered a Kickstarter?

I have seen it work on some very niche products. My wife is in to sewing historic dresses and a woman who makes very elaborate patterns put up a Kickstarter for a new dress pattern with a $7500 (to fund initial print runs of pattern) goal and a 2 month timeline. She met the goal in 12 hours and doubled it in 2 weeks.

Just a thought, really want to see this work out, but completely understand your need to do little things like feed your kids and pay the mortgage.

George
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Old 03-15-2013, 07:33 AM   #1579
gbmaz
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Crafty-

I think you hit the nail on the head with your thoughts about a Kickstarter. I am much more likely to pony up more money if it is "guarantied" to keep the project going. Kickstarter also has the potential to put it out in front of a larger audience. It also gives you a place to lay out your case for the site and explain the costs.

I really hope you will consider doing this and then those of us who have been using the site and the app can be out promoting the Kickstarter to others. It is possible that we really can raise the kind of support needed to keep things going. It might take a few months and the site may have to go offline for a bit if the money does not come in quickly. As much of a bummer as that would be it would give all of the current users a kick in the ass to help get more supporters.

Would it be possible to keep a version of the site online with a place to download popular tracks, but without the track creation function? It could act as a placeholder and be another venue to promote the Kickstarter.

Have you considered reaching out to vendors as part of a Kickstarter? Kickstarters usually have a tiered set of rewards for supporters and one of the higher ones could be geared toward commercial support. Perhaps a $1000 contribution gets you an ad for a fixed amount of time and discount on future ads to reward the support of the Kickstarter.

Yes I said ad. I think the reality is that you are going to need to seek some kind of continuing revenue if the site is to keep going after the update. Ads could form the base of that with voluntary user support shoring that up.

Please let those of us who have been benefitting from the site do our part by giving us a chance to evangelize/fundraise for you with a Kickstarter. You have done all the heavy lifting so far and now the users of this "free" site need to step up.

And if you have to throw in the towel for personal and financial reasons do not see it as a failure, just as an inspiration of what is possible to serve the riding community.

My $.02,

George
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Old 03-19-2013, 04:58 AM   #1580
NHBill
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Crafty, I love the app and use it a lot. Count me in on the PayPal thing because of how much I use it and if you launch a kickstarter campaign, I'll help there too.

Bill

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Old 03-19-2013, 05:00 AM   #1581
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I'll also talk it up with the groups that I ride with. I'd be bummed if the Site went down, wish I had the skills to help out.

Bill

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Old 03-19-2013, 05:29 PM   #1582
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Kickstarter turned down my request for a project page today. Too bad because that is something I would feel really good about advertising widely because either we raise enough money to fund the work or we raise no money, a nice system. My direct appeal to this forum and the Facebook audience has not been successful so I've canceled that fundrazr and refunded everyone who sent money to it. I cancelled early because the refunds cost me 10% and the pace of donations made it clear that I wouldn't raise sufficient money to fund the work. I didn't want to burn any more cash sending refunds than I already have.

I'm pretty much out of ideas.
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Old 03-19-2013, 06:43 PM   #1583
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Dang I really hate to hear that Crafty.

So in May when Google shuts down the V2 API what exactly happens to the Android side of things? Will there still be some functionality that is working or is it pretty much going to break the whole thing?
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Old 03-19-2013, 07:10 PM   #1584
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The only negative impact to the Android app is that there will be no website to add maps and tracks to. This will limit your ability to add new high quality maps to the app. All the old maps will continue to be available via the website API that the app uses though. The app will continue to work in the exact manner it did the day before the website went offline. Little solace to me but not a bitter pill for most people.

It is possible that the servers I use to connect to the Google Map tiles in the app will be going offline too. If that is the case I will remove those from the app or find suitable replacements.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueLghtning View Post
Dang I really hate to hear that Crafty.

So in May when Google shuts down the V2 API what exactly happens to the Android side of things? Will there still be some functionality that is working or is it pretty much going to break the whole thing?
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Old 03-19-2013, 07:29 PM   #1585
NHBill
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Well that just sucks Crafty... Really sorry to hear that. :-(

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Old 03-19-2013, 10:09 PM   #1586
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I've spilled the beans on the website now. Within a week everyone will know. I've posted up a Paypal link there explicitly telling people there will be no refunds if we don't reach the target. At least I won't take a bath or feel like a total dick if we don't hit the target. Full disclosure is key. The site gets a lot of traffic, its possible all y'all will come through. If not, then clearly the site isn't worth the trouble.
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Old 03-19-2013, 10:32 PM   #1587
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Possible to setup so that I can donate with a CC? I don't have a PP account....
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Old 03-19-2013, 10:47 PM   #1588
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Sad news indeed my friend. I, and many others, appreciate the work you have done for the DS community.

It is sad to see you have to move on from a project that you have so clearly put so much of your time, money and passion in to, but to all things there must be an end.

Thanks for what you have done, and good luck in your future endeavors.
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:45 AM   #1589
NHBill
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beechum1 View Post
Possible to setup so that I can donate with a CC? I don't have a PP account....
I believe that you can use a credit card on PayPal without setting up an account.

Sent from my Samsung Note 2
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Cancer Sucks!
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Soak it all in, It's a game you can't win, Enjoy the ride
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:58 AM   #1590
tommu56
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Crafty I want to thank you for your hard work.

Please keep my donation (I know its only small) to help defray the costs.

tom
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