ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Riding > The perfect line and other riding myths
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 03-21-2013, 01:06 PM   #166
KLRKowboy
clueless rabble
 
KLRKowboy's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2008
Location: The Knat Zone
Oddometer: 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post


Don't make me get von baden on yer ass..............
__________________
You can only be young once, but you can be immature forever!
KLRKowboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2013, 01:20 PM   #167
windmill
Beastly Adventurer
 
windmill's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2008
Location: Kent, Washington State
Oddometer: 4,084
Quote:
Originally Posted by randyo View Post
there is one drawback to not tailgating

when you leave safe separation, you get more idiots that think they have time to turn left in front of you
Problem with that is if the vehicle in front is hiding the rider they may also assume the space is clear.
__________________
"Take care, sir," cried Sancho. "Those over there are not giants but windmills".
windmill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2013, 01:23 PM   #168
Griffin44
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Griffin44's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2010
Location: Ontario
Oddometer: 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraith Rider View Post
@Mat
Your link is absolutely not related to tailgating. It's about shortened vision and maybe snowy weather. Also I don't "think" that there's enough space for me, I KNOW it. It's not really a difficult equation.

First, 2s is NOT given as a minimum. Second, since the stopping distance of the guy in front of me is ~130ft as well, my stopping distance isn't a problem and safety distance is only for compensating reaction time. Third, the 1s reaction time includes weight transfer. (Of course one has to practice braking.)
So I'm standing still directly behind the car, no problem. (And of course as mayday said, this would only be important if the one in front of you emergency brakes without a reason.)
I believe your calculations are wrong. We teach our professional emergency drivers an absolute minimum of 2 seconds following distance + differential in braking capacity of a heavy vehicle.

Our rationale for that is several points:
  1. it is accepted by every professional driver training organization we know about as standard
  2. reaction time alone is close to one full second for a fully aware, high functioning human. That's just to the point that brakes are beginning to be applied.
  3. If that one second has eaten up your total following distance, it means you're about to eat bumper because you're just beginning to brake and they've been braking for one full second and are therefore travelling far slower than you are. It doesn't matter how good your reactions are or how good your brakes are, you're into their bumper.
You seem to be presuming that your reaction time will be the same as the reaction time of the vehicle in front of you. That is not correct. You're reaction time starts when they initiate an action - i.e. you see them braking. That is, unless you are reacting to whatever made them want to brake at the same time that they brake. That's a serious stretch and not something to depend on. How are you gonna know when his girlfriend bit him?

I strive for at least 2 seconds. I too often get well within that and am then dependent on seeing and reacting to anything that might cause that vehicle to brake. A very bad position to be in.

By far the most dangerous vehicle on the road is the one in front of you - whether oncoming or the one you're following.
__________________
2010 BMW S1000RR
Griffin44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2013, 02:26 PM   #169
Wraith Rider
Beastly Adventurer
 
Wraith Rider's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2012
Location: Germany
Oddometer: 1,307
Quote:
Originally Posted by randyo View Post
not when what stopped the vehicle in front of you was a head on collision or an object that fell out of the vehicle in front of him or a moose, cow or bison wondered into the road. Or someone backed out of a driveway in front of the car in front of you
If it transports something you can't drive over, keep your distance. In all the other cases, keep your eyes open. No problem there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Griffin44 View Post
I believe your calculations are wrong.
Luckily, physics isn't about believing, so your believings are wrong and my calculations are right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Griffin44 View Post
reaction time alone is close to one full second for a fully aware, high functioning human
Wrong. Reaction time alone is 300ms average, with some individuals under 200ms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Griffin44 View Post
That's just to the point that brakes are beginning to be applied.
Wrong. We have to add 300...500ms for moving the foot/fingers from throttle to brake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Griffin44 View Post
If that one second has eaten up your total following distance, it means you're about to eat bumper because you're just beginning to brake and they've been braking for one full second and are therefore travelling far slower than you are.
Wrong. There are another ~200ms to build up full braking power, so it's about 1s with a tiny bit of braking that's assumed to be "not braking" as a safety margin and after that it's full braking. The one in front of you was braking for one full second and that's the reason why you stay one second behind to be able to stop right behind him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Griffin44 View Post
It doesn't matter how good your reactions are or how good your brakes are
Wrong. Better reactions and better brakes allow for a shorter safety distance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Griffin44 View Post
You're reaction time starts when they initiate an action
Generally wrong, but that is what I assume for the sake of the discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Griffin44 View Post
I strive for at least 2 seconds. I too often get well within that and am then dependent on seeing and reacting to anything that might cause that vehicle to brake. A very bad position to be in.
Since that (seeing and reacting to anything any other could be caused by to do something) is my regular state, this position is quite comfortable.
__________________
"Why not stay in disguise all the time? You know, look like everyone else."
"Because we shouldn't have to."
Wraith Rider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2013, 02:48 PM   #170
randyo
Beastly Adventurer
 
randyo's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2007
Location: Northern NewEngland
Oddometer: 1,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraith Rider View Post
If it transports something you can't drive over, keep your distance. In all the other cases, keep your eyes open. No problem there.



Luckily, physics isn't about believing, so your believings are wrong and my calculations are right.



Wrong. Reaction time alone is 300ms average, with some individuals under 200ms.



Wrong. We have to add 300...500ms for moving the foot/fingers from throttle to brake.



Wrong. There are another ~200ms to build up full braking power, so it's about 1s with a tiny bit of braking that's assumed to be "not braking" as a safety margin and after that it's full braking. The one in front of you was braking for one full second and that's the reason why you stay one second behind to be able to stop right behind him.



Wrong. Better reactions and better brakes allow for a shorter safety distance.



Generally wrong, but that is what I assume for the sake of the discussion.



Since that (seeing and reacting to anything any other could be caused by to do something) is my regular state, this position is quite comfortable.

we got it, your superhuman
__________________
RandyO
IBA # 9560
07 VeeStrom
99 SV650
82 XV920R
A man with a gun is a citizen
A man without a gun is a subject
randyo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2013, 02:54 PM   #171
randyo
Beastly Adventurer
 
randyo's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2007
Location: Northern NewEngland
Oddometer: 1,620
http://www.smartmotorist.com/traffic...cond-rule.html
__________________
RandyO
IBA # 9560
07 VeeStrom
99 SV650
82 XV920R
A man with a gun is a citizen
A man without a gun is a subject
randyo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2013, 02:59 PM   #172
Griffin44
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Griffin44's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2010
Location: Ontario
Oddometer: 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraith Rider View Post

Luckily, physics isn't about believing, so your believings are wrong and my calculations are right.


.
No. I'm just not a dick and expressed it in a polite way.
__________________
2010 BMW S1000RR
Griffin44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2013, 05:21 PM   #173
JimVonBaden
"Cool" Aid!
 
JimVonBaden's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2005
Location: Alexandria, VA
Oddometer: 50,766
Quote:
Originally Posted by rgoers View Post
I probably would have pulled over in front of him, then roosted a windshield-full of rocks at him as I took off. (Street legal knobbies are good for more than just riding dirt...) Or I might have shot him... Neither would have turned out as well as what you did. I applaud you!

What did you have for dinner that made it SO worth ignoring the idiot? I may want the recipe...
Having a SO worth going home to will often moderate a person's actions!

Jim
JimVonBaden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2013, 05:23 PM   #174
JimVonBaden
"Cool" Aid!
 
JimVonBaden's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2005
Location: Alexandria, VA
Oddometer: 50,766
Quote:
Originally Posted by KLRKowboy View Post
Pot, have you met Kettle?


But some people ARE morons! It is not a personal attack, but a statement of fact!

Jim
JimVonBaden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2013, 05:39 PM   #175
DAKEZ
Beastly Adventurer
 
DAKEZ's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2007
Location: OR
Oddometer: 19,697
Quote:
Originally Posted by randyo View Post
we got it, your superhuman

** You're ** [klay]


__________________
“Watch out for everything bigger than you, they have the "right of weight"
Bib
DAKEZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2013, 12:21 AM   #176
bumbeen
Banned
 
Joined: Feb 2013
Oddometer: 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraith Rider View Post
If it transports something you can't drive over, keep your distance. In all the other cases, keep your eyes open. No problem there.



Luckily, physics isn't about believing, so your believings are wrong and my calculations are right.



Wrong. Reaction time alone is 300ms average, with some individuals under 200ms.



Wrong. We have to add 300...500ms for moving the foot/fingers from throttle to brake.



Wrong. There are another ~200ms to build up full braking power, so it's about 1s with a tiny bit of braking that's assumed to be "not braking" as a safety margin and after that it's full braking. The one in front of you was braking for one full second and that's the reason why you stay one second behind to be able to stop right behind him.



Wrong. Better reactions and better brakes allow for a shorter safety distance.



Generally wrong, but that is what I assume for the sake of the discussion.



Since that (seeing and reacting to anything any other could be caused by to do something) is my regular state, this position is quite comfortable.
So you won't mind testing this out then? You in the southeast?
bumbeen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2013, 01:20 AM   #177
D_A
Beastly Adventurer
 
D_A's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2013
Location: Central West NSW, Australia
Oddometer: 1,179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraith Rider View Post
Wrong. There are another ~200ms to build up full braking power, so it's about 1s with a tiny bit of braking that's assumed to be "not braking" as a safety margin and after that it's full braking. The one in front of you was braking for one full second and that's the reason why you stay one second behind to be able to stop right behind him.
Not one single part of your argument holds water. You are repeatedly using peak reaction times for simple predefined tasks and applying them to complex decision based tasked. That is not "physics", it is the misapplication of data.

The statement quoted above is the most telling. By your own admission, you have already lost that first second where the vehicle in front has been braking before you have started braking yourself. At your declared one second gap you are already dead before you, with your claimed superhuman reflexes, have started to brake.

If this is genuinely how you ride then you'd better make peace with whatever deity amuses you, because you'll be finding out for sure if they exist sooner rather than later.
D_A is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2013, 01:39 AM   #178
bumbeen
Banned
 
Joined: Feb 2013
Oddometer: 104
To be fair the car doesn't stop in one second so you won't hit them in the first second, but you will be too far behind to catch up with their braking and will hit them between the 2nd and third second of braking time
bumbeen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2013, 04:43 AM   #179
Mat
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Mat's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2008
Location: Heidiland
Oddometer: 402
Quote:
Originally Posted by randyo View Post
That is only valid for us normal mortal tossers.

When the offending drivers on these police video reality shows on German tv get stopped, they always argue that they were just better than others because of "physics", or their superior reaction times (which in turn get negated by non-made up physics - see D_A'a post for explanations - but no mind).

Now I know where that is coming from

One thing is true though: German police only start fining when it is less than 1s. On the other hand, fines and danger are not known to be perfectly correlated, are they.

Anyways, as long as you leave some distance to motorbikes it is fine with me. Tailgating is not a black-and-white business, there are degrees of it. Depends on the situation and who you are following.
__________________
I think there might be a more scenic route somewhere...
Mat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2013, 06:40 AM   #180
randyo
Beastly Adventurer
 
randyo's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2007
Location: Northern NewEngland
Oddometer: 1,620
Wraith best hope that the person behind him is as superhuman as he is or he will be rear ended
__________________
RandyO
IBA # 9560
07 VeeStrom
99 SV650
82 XV920R
A man with a gun is a citizen
A man without a gun is a subject
randyo is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 07:49 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014