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Old 03-25-2013, 11:41 AM   #3706
timolgra1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beek-02 View Post
Bill is correct to an extent. This really depends on the carb you have. If you are still running a stock bst 40 he is absolutely correct. In my experience if you open up the airbox to much you establish no pressure(vacuum) in the airbox. The reason this is bad is because that is the way that your carb operates. It creates a lag until that airflow velocity/pressure is reestablished. With a fcr/pumper carb open the intake and exhaust as much as possible and let that (and off course the motor itself) be your only restriction. As far as filtration goes, there are many theories, but as long as you are keeping the dirt out and the air coming in your, theory is as accurate as any other. Beek

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
Thanks, I'm using an FCR 41/JD jetting and Akro exhaust.
I've refitted the blank side cover before reading the above and soon as I get chance will try it out.

But here's a question regarding JD jetting.
I've set the bike up as per JD recomendations for sea level except the needle is on the top notch and runs perfect now. (ie. I've had to drop the needle 3 notches)

So running at altitude, say averaging 6000ft.
If I change the jetting and needle as per JD recomendations.
Will I still need to drop the needle correspondingly or will it be a trial an error thing?

The bike's being shipped out from UK to Alburquerque and would obviously prefer it to be set up beforehand, although I will take a selection of jets and both needles this time.
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Old 03-25-2013, 10:12 PM   #3707
bmwktmbill
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Beek and Timo,
You are both right.
About carbs and flow I really don't know.
Hey that rhymes.

I go back in time to the flow bench and Sonny Branch making Harley's go fast on the flat track.

Out of all that I got it that air is an invisible, compressible fluid.
So birds fly and so do airplanes and I always loved the look of a velocity stack.
Air flows like water. It's a fluid. Birds swim in the air.

Being a fly fisherman I spent many years of time watching water.
It flows and is predictable in my experience.

That said, we understand that KTM used a BST on the 640 travel bike because the Adventure was not designed as a racer. The BST is a carb that self adjusts to altitude changes and is a frugal user of fuel.

If I was running a FCR carb on a 640 Adventure I'd have to see the layout of the 660 racer's airfilter and airbox, I'd build that as best I could....

The factory always cheats.

They use a dyno.

As for dirt, no worries, chrome bore and chrome rings.
The foam filter in my experience doesn't pass dirt, it will plug eventually but it is easily cleaned with tank gas and oiled using a bread bag, engine oil and some EMT gloves.
FWIW.

bill
__________________
'02 KTM 640 Adventure-lowered
"On the road there are no special cases."
Cormack McCarthy-The Crossing

The faster it goes the faster it breaks.
And high performance=high maintenance.
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Old 03-25-2013, 11:31 PM   #3708
Droptarotter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwktmbill View Post
Beek and Timo,
You are both right.
About carbs and flow I really don't know.
Hey that rhymes.

I go back in time to the flow bench and Sonny Branch making Harley's go fast on the flat track.

Out of all that I got it that air is an invisible, compressible fluid.
So birds fly and so do airplanes and I always loved the look of a velocity stack.
Air flows like water. It's a fluid. Birds swim in the air.

Being a fly fisherman I spent many years of time watching water.
It flows and is predictable in my experience.

That said, we understand that KTM used a BST on the 640 travel bike because the Adventure was not designed as a racer. The BST is a carb that self adjusts to altitude changes and is a frugal user of fuel.

If I was running a FCR carb on a 640 Adventure I'd have to see the layout of the 660 racer's airfilter and airbox, I'd build that as best I could....

The factory always cheats.

They use a dyno.

As for dirt, no worries, chrome bore and chrome rings.
The foam filter in my experience doesn't pass dirt, it will plug eventually but it is easily cleaned with tank gas and oiled using a bread bag, engine oil and some EMT gloves.
FWIW.

bill
Bill;
So many words of wisdom here.........I forgot the name "Sonny Branch" and all the flow bench secrets that man revealed.

For me......my BST with only 3000km's on it works fantastic!........I'll use it until it gives me problems then I will install an FCR because I don't change altitude that much.

As for dirt........the foam air filter only gets more efficient
the dirtier it gets.........all you have to do is clean it to get more performance!


Cheers
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Old 03-26-2013, 09:06 PM   #3709
bmwktmbill
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Thanks Drop,
It's a little weird to say, "Mom, I'm just trying to understand the aerodynamics of a compressible fluid. Just let me read for another hour."

"Please???"



Life is so strange.
North of the 45th parallel in March.

Is wind just a gravity storm?
Or a lion or a lamb?


bill
__________________
'02 KTM 640 Adventure-lowered
"On the road there are no special cases."
Cormack McCarthy-The Crossing

The faster it goes the faster it breaks.
And high performance=high maintenance.
Bill Shockley

bmwktmbill screwed with this post 03-26-2013 at 09:14 PM
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Old 03-26-2013, 09:28 PM   #3710
Young-Gun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwktmbill View Post
Thanks Drop,
It's a little weird to say, "Mom, I'm just trying to understand the aerodynamics of a compressible fluid. Just let me read for another hour."

"Please???"



Life is so strange.
North of the 45th parallel in March.

Is wind just a gravity storm?
Or a lion or a lamb?


bill
Psychic Vampires?
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Old 03-27-2013, 09:04 AM   #3711
johnno950
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00 660 airbox-40mm dellorto

07 690rr airbox-41mmfcr

the rallyes got a fair bit more punch hp wise,air inlet only part of the sum,bigger exhaust/bore,stroke........amazing bikes

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Old 03-27-2013, 09:21 AM   #3712
bmwktmbill
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Young-gun-640 View Post
Psychic Vampires?
Be on the alert, they are fucking everywhere.
And dead.
Just look at the top of every empire.

Energy thieves.
They steal joy.
They want to destroy my KTM and make me ride a KLR.
bill
__________________
'02 KTM 640 Adventure-lowered
"On the road there are no special cases."
Cormack McCarthy-The Crossing

The faster it goes the faster it breaks.
And high performance=high maintenance.
Bill Shockley
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Old 03-27-2013, 09:24 AM   #3713
bmwktmbill
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnno950 View Post
00 660 airbox-40mm dellorto

07 690rr airbox-41mmfcr

the rallyes got a fair bit more punch hp wise,air inlet only part of the sum,bigger exhaust/bore,stroke........amazing bikes
I think we are getting somewhere.
Thanks for the pics.

What bolted on top of the 660 box, I see the inserts or something in the corners.

bill
__________________
'02 KTM 640 Adventure-lowered
"On the road there are no special cases."
Cormack McCarthy-The Crossing

The faster it goes the faster it breaks.
And high performance=high maintenance.
Bill Shockley
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Old 03-27-2013, 09:35 AM   #3714
johnno950
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwktmbill View Post
I think we are getting somewhere.
Thanks for the pics.

What bolted on top of the 660 box, I see the inserts or something in the corners.

bill
The 2 660s 99 and 00 i owned never had anything that bolted fitted onto the 4x threaded inserts,had a fine mesh screen on rear and side from memory,i believe this airbox on the early rallye 98-00 was generic with a 620 super comp/and a few of the other lc4 models,fairly sure the 690 rallye air box is generic with the 01-06 660 rallyes,looks the same,never cross/refed the part numbers....01-06 had a 39mm fcr the 690rr has a 41mm,my 690 has alot of induction noise...love it

johnno950 screwed with this post 03-27-2013 at 09:51 AM
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Old 03-27-2013, 04:42 PM   #3715
bmwktmbill
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnno950 View Post
The 2 660s 99 and 00 i owned never had anything that bolted fitted onto the 4x threaded inserts,had a fine mesh screen on rear and side from memory,i believe this airbox on the early rallye 98-00 was generic with a 620 super comp/and a few of the other lc4 models,fairly sure the 690 rallye air box is generic with the 01-06 660 rallyes,looks the same,never cross/refed the part numbers....01-06 had a 39mm fcr the 690rr has a 41mm,my 690 has alot of induction noise...love it
Thanks for the info and I appreciate your comment on the induction noise. I always thought that was why they put the snorkle on the 640. To quiet it.

That's why IMHO Sommer opened the side of the airbox with a screen.
For German legal reasons they couldn't pull the snorkle even though it made sense to do it that way.

I might be wrong about that, anyway Sommer had a dyno.
bill

BTW, if you think we are nuts you ought to get into a debate with kayakers(just laid out cash for a used Kevlar boat) on hull design. It's really the same debate except water is a non-compressible fluid for all practical purposes.

Go with the flow!!

http://www.paddlewise.com/topics/boa...-conswede.html

It's all here...

http://archive.org/stream/speedpower...ge/n9/mode/2up

Stream lines.

Which brings us to one of my favorite songs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28yUf5l6egw

b
__________________
'02 KTM 640 Adventure-lowered
"On the road there are no special cases."
Cormack McCarthy-The Crossing

The faster it goes the faster it breaks.
And high performance=high maintenance.
Bill Shockley

bmwktmbill screwed with this post 03-27-2013 at 05:33 PM
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Old 03-27-2013, 08:41 PM   #3716
overlandr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marten660 View Post
Today i own a different LC4.. (bought in jan. this year en restored en had it sprayed in Galoises colors etc.)

It 's a 660RR and has a lot more power compared with the 640adv!
And the noise is also a bit (...) more
Now I can see why cycling is so popular there in the Netherlands!

Yeah Bill, Sommer had a wealth of experience on KTMs and its a pity they were bought out, rebranded and effectively disbanded. I saw a DB killer insert for an akra system the other day that had been modified by them with some small annular holes drilled to increase the gas flow. I think jerome was told that they recommended the FCR41mx in preference to its smaller cousin.

One can still download their old catalogues (with their infamous tips) in German for those interested from the new company's site.

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Old 03-28-2013, 08:28 AM   #3717
bmwktmbill
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Overlandr, Got a link to the new site?
bill
__________________
'02 KTM 640 Adventure-lowered
"On the road there are no special cases."
Cormack McCarthy-The Crossing

The faster it goes the faster it breaks.
And high performance=high maintenance.
Bill Shockley
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Old 03-28-2013, 12:21 PM   #3718
DaddyBigDaddy
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Location: Liberal ShitHole, San Fran-sissyco, Kalee-Fornee-a
Oddometer: 303
Wanted

Looking for a 640A dual disc wheel or hub

Email Ken@AspenRacing.com if you have one or know where I can get one

THANKS! DaddyBigDaddy
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Old 03-29-2013, 02:45 AM   #3719
overlandr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwktmbill View Post
Overlandr, Got a link to the new site?
bill
If you go to their old site - ktm-sommer.de I think, it auto redirects you through to their new owner's site and there you'll find :

http://www.ktmteamwest.com/website/i...ory&Itemid=399

The 4th line is sommerkatalog2008 and has 29 separate downloads - get downloading, man! Lukas was going to translate the "Sommer tipps" but that was some 5 years ago before he moved on from our 'dinosaurs'!!


I've just tried google translate on an excerpt about needle and jet wear on a carb. This is the result which is quite usable :

"NEEDLE and needle jet
The wear on the needle (all carburetor)
and needle jet (all carburetor)
can not be measured, since the needle conical
is formed and the inner roundness
The needle jet is not measurable.
By constant friction and
Hitting the needle (caused by
Vibrations) in the needle jet is formed
Also here is a material reduction in
two components.
Is the more down in the "basement"
(Off), the higher the wear out
Full load is virtually no wear
instead. Why can not an exact KM
Give indication for the exchange.
Packages should be at a LC4
Replace every 20,000 km (needle and
Needle jet), 4-stroke KTM Racing latest
every 2nd Season, KTM 2 stroke each
Season (needle) occur."

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Old 03-29-2013, 10:16 PM   #3720
bmwktmbill
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Overlandr,
Thanks for the link.
How did you get Google to translate in the pdf.
Did you use google chrome?
bill
__________________
'02 KTM 640 Adventure-lowered
"On the road there are no special cases."
Cormack McCarthy-The Crossing

The faster it goes the faster it breaks.
And high performance=high maintenance.
Bill Shockley

bmwktmbill screwed with this post 03-31-2013 at 07:43 PM
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