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Old 03-26-2013, 10:16 AM   #736
HogWild
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Quote:
Originally Posted by az45 View Post
If I'm looking at a road book and odometer, I'm not looking out for guys like you on bikes trying to figure out which way to go. What happens when someone makes a wrong turn? The go backwards on the race course.
Dakar and may similar races work quite well with this format (stages, roadbooks, secret course, no GPS tracks).

How are you watching out for others while you're looking at the GPS screen? And how is it the GPS prevents missing turns, but a roadbook doesn't? You generally don't have to look at a roadbook as much as a GPS because the roadbook tells you how far you can go before the next turn (most of that in-between time not having to keep looking at the roadbook). With the GPS, you have to look a lot more often, unless you have the whole course memorized.

Rally racing is DIFFERENT from traditional Baja racing. It's a well proven concept. I know it's hard to learn a new trick, but most who put their heart into it actually like it more. Have an open mind and give it a try!

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Dont worry about someone having an advantage by using GPS because you're not treating it as a race anyways.
What???? Please explain this? Where there no real "races" before GPS came along? And in many places, a roadbook gives an advantage over a GPS.
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Old 03-26-2013, 10:27 AM   #737
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Are the MC road books being printed on a roll?
or like last year?
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Old 03-26-2013, 10:33 AM   #738
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Originally Posted by az45 View Post
What happens when someone makes a wrong turn? The go backwards on the race course.
a wrong turn would be they are off the race course, and there were never be a need to go backwards on the race course.
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Originally Posted by Dread Pendragon View Post
Mention to HogWild which way the wind is blowing where you're at, wait 20 minutes, and he'll post a picture of the intersection your at and a Google Earth route of how to get there.
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Old 03-26-2013, 10:39 AM   #739
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Originally Posted by cross-country View Post
If it was known, then why not just tell us? Why would they sit on the info until the last minute? I'm glad its in there, don't get me wrong, but why do it this way?
When I posted those hints, they were talking seriously about it, but the final decision had not been made. They always seem to be a bit late (in my opinion) getting the course set each year. Then again, it's a tough job so we're lucky it gets done at all. I think the secret course section was just finalized a few days ago. So they were not sure they would have the "roadbook only" part until now. And who knows how many more days before an official press release is made? You guys are getting an information jump on the competition already!

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Warning just a reminder!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ICO rallys are set in KILOMETERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
you must re set them to miles.....
in less the roadbooks are set up for both!!!
I'll try to remember to make the secret course section of the roadbook in both miles and kilometers. I normally do that in all my other roadbooks, but I don't recall if the NORRA stuff was that way. When I include both, the MILES will be the large number, and the KM will be tiny text below. It's a bit hard to read that, so you could always hand write the KM numbers larger while reviewing the roadbook the night before. But it's probably best to set your odometer for MILES so you're consistent with everyone else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baja Dad View Post
Are the MC road books being printed on a roll?
or like last year?
Sorry, no rolls this year. Maybe next year.

They might make each day a separate booklet instead of one huge thing. Actually, if they are handing out the next day roadbook at the finish of each day, they HAVE to be separate.
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HogWild screwed with this post 03-26-2013 at 10:45 AM
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Old 03-26-2013, 10:45 AM   #740
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Originally Posted by HogWild View Post
When I posted those hints, they were talking seriously about it, but the final decision had not been made. They always seem to be a bit late (in my opinion) getting the course set each year. Then again, it's a tough job so we're lucky it gets done at all. I think the secret course section was just finalized a few days ago. So they were not sure they would have the "roadbook only" part until now. And who knows how many more days before an official press release is made? You guys are getting an information jump on the competition already!

I'll try to remember to make the secret course section of the roadbook in both miles and kilometers. I normally do that in all my other roadbooks, but I don't recall if the NORRA stuff was that way. When I include both, the MILES will be the large number, and the KM will be tiny text below. It's a bit hard to read that, so you could always hand write the KM numbers larger while reviewing the roadbook the night before. But it's probably best to set your odometer for MILES so you're consistent with everyone else.

Sorry, no rolls this year. Maybe next year.

They MIGHT make each day a separate booklet instead of one huge thing. Actually, if they are handing the next day roadbook at the finish of each day, they HAVE to be separate.

Thats Great !!!

Thanks Hog !!!
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Old 03-26-2013, 11:34 AM   #741
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beechum1 View Post
a wrong turn would be they are off the race course, and there were never be a need to go backwards on the race course.
If you miss a turn with a roll chart, you go back to the turn. If you have GPS, you could find another route or cut through to see the trail as it would be marked on your GPS.


Quote:
Originally Posted by HogWild View Post
Dakar and may similar races work quite well with this format (stages, roadbooks, secret course, no GPS tracks).

How are you watching out for others while you're looking at the GPS screen? And how is it the GPS prevents missing turns, but a roadbook doesn't? You generally don't have to look at a roadbook as much as a GPS because the roadbook tells you how far you can go before the next turn (most of that in-between time not having to keep looking at the roadbook). With the GPS, you have to look a lot more often, unless you have the whole course memorized.

Rally racing is DIFFERENT from traditional Baja racing. It's a well proven concept. I know it's hard to learn a new trick, but most who put their heart into it actually like it more. Have an open mind and give it a try!

What???? Please explain this? Where there no real "races" before GPS came along? And in many places, a roadbook gives an advantage over a GPS.
I can glance at a GPS to see where I'm going. A road book requires looking at the symbols, then looking at the odometer.

There were lots of races before GPS, but the courses were marked or there was no course. This is not a tribute to Dakar or Rally racing, this is a tribute to off road desert racing.

Its not that I'm worried about my capabilities, its the fact you are trying to make it a bike Rally. The only thing "Rally" about NORRA is that there are stages. This is a Desert Race with stages.
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Old 03-26-2013, 11:55 AM   #742
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You guys are all riled up!

Hoggie, can you ask them to disclose the mileage of the specials? I was planning on running without pit support and I don't want to be surprised by a 210mi special once we're down there.

Thanks!
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Old 03-26-2013, 12:22 PM   #743
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Quote:
Originally Posted by az45 View Post
This is not a tribute to Dakar or Rally racing, this is a tribute to off road desert racing.

Its not that I'm worried about my capabilities, its the fact you are trying to make it a bike Rally. The only thing "Rally" about NORRA is that there are stages. This is a Desert Race with stages.
I'm not sure what "bike" has do do with this. The roadbook and secret course are just as much a car thing as a bike thing. It's just not a traditional North American off-road thing.

I know what some of the regular Baja guys want and think the race should be. And I know what some of the NORRA people think it should be. What you want and what they want are two different things. NORRA is trying to ease the traditional Baja crowd into a different type of off-road racing, one small step at a time. The main theme of the event is Vintage off-road. A secondary theme is Rally, which is why they use that word in describing the event. It's pretty clear now that they have tried it, the traditional baja crowd loves the somewhat relaxed multi-day stage aspect of rally. This year they will get a TINY taste of rally navigation.

I have yet to hear any of the American car or bike guys who have raced a roadbook event say they didn't love the navigation challenge. I hear plenty of negative comments from people who have never raced such an event.
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Old 03-26-2013, 12:26 PM   #744
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Originally Posted by roadracer View Post
Hoggie, can you ask them to disclose the mileage of the specials? I was planning on running without pit support and I don't want to be surprised by a 210mi special once we're down there.
I'll do what I can. But from what I've seen of the course this year, there won't be any big gas range surprises like that.
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Old 03-26-2013, 12:37 PM   #745
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[QUOTE=az45;21039104]If you miss a turn with a roll chart, you go back to the turn. If you have GPS, you could find another route or cut through to see the trail as it would be marked on your GPS]

That's right GPS is great for cutting the course you should know where you're going by your roadbook
Quit! making excuses for you lazy ass Car guys!!
I've raced many events on motorcycles and cars Starting back in1969
GPS tracks
is taking the adventure and the challenge out of all these off-road events
I Have said it many many times
no pre-running no GPS no air support bring it back down to earth so you don't have to have Millionsof dollars to To be competitive and a chance to win
Any of these off-road races.
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Old 03-26-2013, 12:51 PM   #746
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Originally Posted by HogWild View Post
What you want and what they want are two different things. NORRA is trying to ease the traditional Baja crowd into a different type of off-road racing, one small step at a time. The main theme of the event is Vintage off-road. A secondary theme is Rally, which is why they use that word in describing the event. It's pretty clear now that they have tried it, the traditional baja crowd loves the somewhat relaxed multi-day stage aspect of rally. This year they will get a TINY taste of rally navigation.
I'm the traditional Baja crowd and I love the event. I heard stories about the first race from Dick Cepek at my dinner table when I was a kid. I drive a period correct 3 time Baja(2 OA) 1000 winning car. I have a very strong appreciation for Baja racing.

You ride a late model moto in a vintage desert race and are making assumptions that whats good for you is good for everybody else.

I'm not riled up, I'll be there having a good time no matter what!
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Old 03-26-2013, 01:03 PM   #747
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Originally Posted by HogWild View Post
When I posted those hints, they were talking seriously about it, but the final decision had not been made. They always seem to be a bit late (in my opinion) getting the course set each year. Then again, it's a tough job so we're lucky it gets done at all. I think the secret course section was just finalized a few days ago. So they were not sure they would have the "roadbook only" part until now. And who knows how many more days before an official press release is made? You guys are getting an information jump on the competition already!
Cheers, nobody likes a surprise when the bike-prep-shit-storm is in high gear but I do appreciate getting the info earlier than we would have otherwise. In the end, if it's only 5% of the course, connecting the dots over 50 miles of track should be pretty easy......even for a knuckle dragging desert racers.
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Old 03-26-2013, 01:06 PM   #748
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[QUOTE=Baja Dad;21039579]
Quote:
Originally Posted by az45 View Post
If you miss a turn with a roll chart, you go back to the turn. If you have GPS, you could find another route or cut through to see the trail as it would be marked on your GPS]

That's right GPS is great for cutting the course you should know where you're going by your roadbook
Quit! making excuses for you lazy ass Car guys!!
I've raced many events on motorcycles and cars Starting back in1969
GPS tracks
is taking the adventure and the challenge out of all these off-road events
I Have said it many many times
no pre-running no GPS no air support bring it back down to earth so you don't have to have Millionsof dollars to To be competitive and a chance to win
Any of these off-road races.
Easy Turbo! I've never cut a course in my life and I'm a bike guy! I'm not Lazy, I'm just saying it should be like off road racing was. When roll charts were used in the early Baja races, the course was marked. The early races didnt rely on road books, so I;m not sure what you mean about being competitive.

Just voicing how I feel from a car guys point, I'm not fighting. I've voiced my concerns with Mike P, so I know this is all just racing banter.
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Old 03-26-2013, 02:49 PM   #749
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Originally Posted by az45 View Post
You ride a late model moto in a vintage desert race and are making assumptions that whats good for you is good for everybody else.
I haven't been to the NORRA race since 2010, and I'm not going this year. And I'm not making any assumptions of good or bad, I'm just informing as best I can. NORRA is pretty slow at getting this type of information out, so I'm trying to help.

I've known for a long time that Strong Bad and plenty of others would not like this type of change. But it's not me doing it, it's NORRA. I'm not a member of NORRA and I have no decision making powers over them.

I did tell Ken at NORRA that the sh*t would hit the fan as soon as this was announced, and he said "bring it on".
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Old 03-26-2013, 03:15 PM   #750
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Originally Posted by HogWild View Post
I haven't been to the NORRA race since 2010, and I'm not going this year. And I'm not making any assumptions of good or bad, I'm just informing as best I can. NORRA is pretty slow at getting this type of information out, so I'm trying to help.

I've known for a long time that Strong Bad and plenty of others would not like this type of change. But it's not me doing it, it's NORRA. I'm not a member of NORRA and I have no decision making powers over them.

I did tell Ken at NORRA that the sh*t would hit the fan as soon as this was announced, and he said "bring it on".
You've been once and your not going this year?
Why are you lobbying for it if you know its going to create a problem?
Will no GPS make it more fun?

If you're a hard core rally guy, just leave your GPS at home. If your a vintage guy, ride a vintage bike with a roll chart. If you're both, use both.

The car guys will have the biggest issue with this, so they should make it for the bikes only.

Ken and the staff have enough to do with out adding in one more timing/scoring dynamic.
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